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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 (Read 7089 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #16 - 02/25/20 at 20:21:32
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Hi.

Uberdecker wrote on 02/21/20 at 22:51:59:
Does anyone know if there have been any further developments in these lines ?
It doesn't look like there is much established theory still.

Uberdecker wrote on 02/21/20 at 22:51:59:
Has 3. d4 been established as the main move in this position or have there since been games with 3. e4 ?

1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.e4 has been played many times. What to do after 3...e5? though
4.d4 fxe4 is a Vienna main line with black playing white.
4.Nc3 has been played a lot but 4...Bb4 or 4...Nf6 seem comfortable for black.
maybe:
4.Be2!?
could be an option but I don't see any obvious advantage.
4...Be7!?
5.exf5 d5 6.d4 e4 7.Ne5 Nxe5 8.dxe5 Bxf5 and now it looks like taking down black's centre will be hard.
(5.exf5 d6 6.c4 was a more interesting, with more play)
5.0-0 Nf6 6.exf5
6.c4 fxe4 (or even 6...f4!?) Does not look like it ought to be much.
6...d5 7.d4 exd4 8.Nxd4 Nxd4 9.Qxd4 Bxf5
Should be OK for black. If 10.g4 Bg6.

Uberdecker wrote on 02/21/20 at 22:51:59:
Has 3. a3 been tried ?

Not what I can see and it's an interesting idea. Maybe 3.c4!? directly can be more precise though, or is there some clever equaliser here not present after 3.a3?

Uberdecker wrote on 02/21/20 at 22:51:59:
After 3. d4 e6 has White tended to play 4. g3 intending 5. Bg2, 6. 0-0 and 7. c4, the immediate 4. c4, Markovich's suggestion of 4. Bg5 (presumably met by 4...Be7 rather than 4...Nf6) or  4. d5 ?

Both 4.c4 and 4.g3 have been played a fair amount of times. After 4. c4 Nf6 many players go 5.g3 though.

I would think
1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 e6 4.Bg5 Nf6 is ok for black. It can turn into something resembling a Bird if white takes on f6 but one that looks interesting for the Bird player. Not so much for the bishop mover.

Uberdecker wrote on 02/21/20 at 22:51:59:
After 4. c4 what has Black's response been ? 4...Bb4+, TalJechin's 4...Qe7 or something else ?

Easily 4...Nf6. If 5.d5 you can go 5...exd5 6.cxd5 Bb4+ and having active knights, instead of moving a bunch of pawns like white, is probably going to be enough for an acceptable game.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #15 - 02/25/20 at 20:13:56
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The author recommends not playing c4 in the lines given until black has played ....Be7 thus avoiding the check on b4.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #14 - 02/25/20 at 17:14:55
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I don't. My main interest is in the line 4. c4 and whether Black can achieve a playable game there without including ...Bb4+
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #13 - 02/25/20 at 16:21:15
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Not sure whether you have the Chessable course Fight Like Kramnik Play 1 Nf3....if not the author looks at the following two lines in the variation you mention...

1 Nf3 f5,  2 d3 Nc6,  3 d4 e6,  4 g3 Nf6,  5 Bg2 and now

5.....d5 .............and

5....Be7,

Of course he also covers;

1 Nf3 f5, 2 d3....

2...Nf6,

2...d6,

2...g6  (one variation)

  
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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #12 - 02/25/20 at 02:37:13
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Dear chess-friends,

Please don't leave me hanging ! I will try to contribute something meaningful soon.
Thanks !
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #11 - 02/22/20 at 04:54:14
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While we're at it, have there been any games of note in the Krause Dutch, where White is essentially a tempo up on these lines ?
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #10 - 02/21/20 at 22:51:59
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Does anyone know if there have been any further developments in these lines ?
Has 3. d4 been established as the main move in this position or have there since been games with 3. e4 ? Has 3. a3 been tried ?
After 3. d4 e6 has White tended to play 4. g3 intending 5. Bg2, 6. 0-0 and 7. c4, the immediate 4. c4, Markovich's suggestion of 4. Bg5 (presumably met by 4...Be7 rather than 4...Nf6) or  4. d5 ?
After 4. c4 what has Black's response been ? 4...Bb4+, TalJechin's 4...Qe7 or something else ?
Any insight as to why BPaulsen ultimately rejected 2. d3 Nc6 3. d4 in favour of recommending the main lines of the Dutch for White in his book ?
Thanks.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #9 - 01/27/09 at 02:27:48
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I'd like to dredge this thread up again, because I checked Palliser's Beating Unusual Chess Openings out of the library and was reviewing it, when I noticed his treatment of 1.Nc3 Nf6 2.f4 ("Aasum System") 2...d5 3.e3 Bg4 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.h3 Bxf3 6.Qxf3 "and we're back in a line of Bird's" which he analyzed earlier from 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e3 Nd7 4.h3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 Ngf6 6.Nc3 (he considers 6.g4 better).  

I have no idea what's going on here, but it's interesting, because it could well arise with colors reversed after 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 e6 4.Bg5 Nf6 5.Nbd2 h6 6.Bxf6 Qxf6.  Palliser commends 6...e5!? (which would be 7.e4 with colors reversed) and claims Black is OK after 7.Nxd5 Nxd5 8.Qxd5 Qh4+ 9.Kd1 c6 10.Qe4 Bd6, a line that he attributes to Tim Taylor.  True enough, but White has 10.Qc4! when I'm not at all sure that Black has enough for his pawn, for example 10...Bd6 (10...Nb6 11.Qe4) 11.fxe5 Qh5+ 12.Be2 Qxe5 13.d4 Qg3 14.Bf3.  

Anyway, it's fascinating that this variation, which looks superfically like crap chess from both players, has been analyzed and might actually be critical for 1.Nf3 f5.

Funny also that Palliser didn't consider 3....c5 or 3...d4 instead of 3...Bg4 after 1.Nc3 Nf6 2.f4 d5 3.e6.

Palliser's book is a must have, btw.  Its treatment of the English alone is worth the price.  It is gold.  I'm sending away for it today.  Another book I'd place in the same ultra-useful category is Dembo's Fighting the Anti-King's Indians.
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #8 - 01/09/09 at 19:06:18
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Thanks for all that info.  Yeah, my inclination would be to play 3...e5 unless White directly prevented it.
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #7 - 01/09/09 at 18:49:54
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Glenn Snow wrote on 01/09/09 at 15:45:42:
Yes after 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 e6 4.c4 Nf6 instead of 4...Qe7 is probably more sensible but you have to give high marks to TalJechin for creativity and it seems playable.  I don't remember his original analysis but would think one idea is to play for ...d6 and ...e5.


Smiley Here's a couple of quotes from my initial postings in June 2005:

TalJechin wrote on 06/20/05 at 13:56:15:
But, OK for the good of the Dutch devotees (or maybe just wasting your time with strange ideas...) here's a favorit i repris! Grin



After 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 I've stayed faithful to 2...Nc6 at least on the net.

Most common is 3.e4 e5 4.Nc3 when 4...Bb4 seems best. Another 'popular' move is 4.d4 with a reversed Vienna!

So far no one has tried 3.d4 which Kindermann recommends. He doesn't mention 3...e6 though. I assume 4.c4 is the intended idea, but without analysing it with fritz or anything, I'd be curious to see what happens after 4...Qe7!? inspired by the Nd8 idea from the Iljin (& Hayward / MNb), e.g:

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=r1b1kbnr/ppppq1pp/2n1p3/...

After 5.d5 Nd8 I'm not sure what white wants to do, black is ready to push e6-e5 and support it with Nf7; g6 and Bg7 would allow the queen to stay on e7 etc.

And 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Bg5 d6

(The idea 6...Nd8(-f7) may also be worth looking into, now d6+e5 may soon be on. Perhaps this a better plan!? Cheesy )

7.d5 Ne5 8.dxe6 and 8...c6 or 8...Bxe6 looks very reasonable for black. And hopefully 8.Qa4+ can be met by 8...Bd7 9.Nb5 exd5, but maybe fritz can find something here or with an earlier queen check somewhere somehow?!  Undecided


TalJechin wrote on 06/30/05 at 04:27:02:
Quote:
But as you mention 4.c4 look critical: Qe7!? 5.d5 Nd8
if 6.dxe6 black should be OK after Nxe6
but what about 6.Nc3...?
At least I think Black should be careful not to rush e6-e5 pawnpush. After 6.-,e5 7.e4! looks good for white. White gets good control of that e4-square.... and 7.-,g6? 8.Bg5!

Better is 6.-,Nf6 7.Qc2 (g6 or d6). Can White break early in the center? (and does it lead to anything...)Or else something like 8.g3 Bg7 9.Bg2 0-0 10.0-0 e5 should be OK for black....


Well, I think you're right that black shouldn't rush e6-e5. But on the other hand, after 6.Nc3 Nf6 7.Qc2 I think that black can just develop with g6, Bg7, Nf7, and d6 or e6-e5. If black just plays for an eventual e6-e5 advance I'm not sure white can touch him.

And 7...Nf7 may also be viable, as 8.dxe6 dxe6 doesn't accomplish much and even if black would play Nf7 and d6, I'm not so sure d5xe6 Bxe6 would be bad either, it's reminiscent of the solid 7...c6 line in the Leningrad or the Iljin with Qe8 and Nc6-d8.

To me ...Qe7 looks quite logical, as it prepares a thematic e-pawn advance and clears the way for Nc6-d8-f7/xe6. It would probably not be OK after d2-d4, but given Qe7 for free with d2-d3-d4 is another matter.

Especially since a knight on f7 is usually quite a good piece in KID structures and in the Dutch it may be even better, compare with the Staunton for example - where black gladly allows the knight to be chased to f7 which, despite the time loss, is probably slightly better for black! Cheesy

So, it would be interesting to see some practical examples of the Qe7 idea. Maybe if Kindermann preaches 1.Nf3! a bit more, one of us will get the chance to try it! Cheesy


Btw, there was a game with 2...Nc6 in the Rilton tournament recently- where white was surprisingly effective with 3.g3 g6 4.e4. I have only quickly browsed through it. The guy playing black is usually a strong solid player close to 2400 in Swedish rating, iirc - but in this game he seems to have chosen the wrong set-up. Keeping the KG-door open a while longer with 3...e5 4.Bg2 Nf6 would be my way to play it - but I guess that he didn't expect e4 to follow so soon after g3. And once you're 'wrong footed' in the Dutch it usually only gets worse and quickly too.

8...d6-d5 is not a fun move to make, 8...e7-e5 must be preferable imo - but then somebody'll start fritz and tell me how wrong I am Wink


Ängskog K. - Semcesen D.

Rilton Cup 38 (2008-09) (9)
Stockholm, 2009

1. Sf3 f5 2. d3 Sc6 3. g3 g6 4. e4 d6 5. exf5 Lxf5 6. d4 Sf6 7. Lg2 Dd7 8. O-O d5 9. Lf4 O-O-O 10. Sbd2 Lg7 11. Se5 Sxe5 12. Lxe5 g5 13. Sb3 b6 14. a4 e6 15. a5 Se8 16. De2 Dc6 17. axb6 axb6 18. c4 Le4 19. cxd5 exd5 20. Lxg7 Sxg7 21. Ta7 Se8 22. Lh3+ Td7 23. Tc1 Dd6 24. Ta8+ 1-0
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #6 - 01/09/09 at 17:25:58
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The line 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 e6 4.d5 exd5 5.Qxd5 should be compared to the line 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.d5 exd5 4.Qxd5.

Here one of the mainlines runs 4...d6 5.Ng5?! (also 5.Bg5 and 5.g3 have been played) 5...Qe7 6.Nxh7 when Jussupow has preferred 6...Rxh7!? 7.Qxg8 Rh4 8.Qb3 Nc6! over the better known 6...c6 7.Qb3 Rxh7 8.Qxg8 Rh4 9.Qb3 Na6 of Miles-Vaisser, Elista 1998 (a short but entertaining draw).
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #5 - 01/09/09 at 15:57:34
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Thanks folks; I missed that disscussion of this in the earlier thread.  As White I would be tempted by 4.d5.  But I have no idea if the ...Qd6 defense to the BDG is any good.
  

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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #4 - 01/09/09 at 15:45:42
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Yes after 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 e6 4.c4 Nf6 instead of 4...Qe7 is probably more sensible but you have to give high marks to TalJechin for creativity and it seems playable.  I don't remember his original analysis but would think one idea is to play for ...d6 and ...e5.
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #3 - 01/09/09 at 15:44:26
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Markovich wrote on 01/09/09 at 15:04:47:
Would someone please explain to me how this line is supposed to work for Black?  I particularly can't see what Black is supposed to do after 3.d4.

Very creative!

Perhaps just simply 3...e6 and keep on moving and developing with Black. I think Black could be happy seeing White pushing is d-pawn twice within the first three moves.

Edit: ups - I was overtaken with my reply  Grin
  
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Re: 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6
Reply #2 - 01/09/09 at 15:39:23
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Well, it seems that it's still White that needs to come up with an improvement on Roiz-Wojtaszek, Warsaw 2005. See the thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1221744682.

MNb's suggestion is sensible but if it offers White an advantage it's a small one, and probably other lines offer more against the Dutch.
  

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