Glenn Snow wrote
on 01/09/09 at 15:45:42:
Yes after 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 e6 4.c4 Nf6 instead of 4...Qe7 is probably more sensible but you have to give high marks to TalJechin for creativity and it seems playable. I don't remember his original analysis but would think one idea is to play for ...d6 and ...e5.
Here's a couple of quotes from my initial postings in June 2005:TalJechin wrote
on 06/20/05 at 13:56:15:
But, OK for the good of the Dutch devotees (or maybe just wasting your time with strange ideas...) here's a favorit i repris!
After 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 I've stayed faithful to 2...Nc6 at least on the net.
Most common is 3.e4 e5 4.Nc3 when 4...Bb4 seems best. Another 'popular' move is 4.d4 with a reversed Vienna!
So far no one has tried 3.d4 which Kindermann recommends. He doesn't mention 3...e6 though. I assume 4.c4 is the intended idea, but without analysing it with fritz or anything, I'd be curious to see what happens after 4...Qe7!? inspired by the Nd8 idea from the Iljin (& Hayward / MNb), e.g: http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=r1b1kbnr/ppppq1pp/2n1p3/...
After 5.d5 Nd8 I'm not sure what white wants to do, black is ready to push e6-e5 and support it with Nf7; g6 and Bg7 would allow the queen to stay on e7 etc.
And 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Bg5 d6
(The idea 6...Nd8(-f7) may also be worth looking into, now d6+e5 may soon be on. Perhaps this a better plan!?
7.d5 Ne5 8.dxe6 and 8...c6 or 8...Bxe6 looks very reasonable for black. And hopefully 8.Qa4+ can be met by 8...Bd7 9.Nb5 exd5, but maybe fritz can find something here or with an earlier queen check somewhere somehow?!
on 06/30/05 at 04:27:02:
But as you mention 4.c4 look critical: Qe7!? 5.d5 Nd8
if 6.dxe6 black should be OK after Nxe6
but what about 6.Nc3...?
At least I think Black should be careful not to rush e6-e5 pawnpush. After 6.-,e5 7.e4! looks good for white. White gets good control of that e4-square.... and 7.-,g6? 8.Bg5!
Better is 6.-,Nf6 7.Qc2 (g6 or d6). Can White break early in the center? (and does it lead to anything...)Or else something like 8.g3 Bg7 9.Bg2 0-0 10.0-0 e5 should be OK for black....
Well, I think you're right that black shouldn't rush e6-e5. But on the other hand, after 6.Nc3 Nf6 7.Qc2 I think that black can just develop with g6, Bg7, Nf7, and d6 or e6-e5. If black just plays for an eventual e6-e5 advance I'm not sure white can touch him.
And 7...Nf7 may also be viable, as 8.dxe6 dxe6 doesn't accomplish much and even if black would play Nf7 and d6, I'm not so sure d5xe6 Bxe6 would be bad either, it's reminiscent of the solid 7...c6 line in the Leningrad or the Iljin with Qe8 and Nc6-d8.
To me ...Qe7 looks quite logical, as it prepares a thematic e-pawn advance and clears the way for Nc6-d8-f7/xe6. It would probably not be OK after d2-d4, but given Qe7 for free with d2-d3-d4 is another matter.
Especially since a knight on f7 is usually quite a good piece in KID structures and in the Dutch it may be even better, compare with the Staunton for example - where black gladly allows the knight to be chased to f7 which, despite the time loss, is probably slightly better for black!
So, it would be interesting to see some practical examples of the Qe7 idea. Maybe if Kindermann preaches 1.Nf3! a bit more, one of us will get the chance to try it!
Btw, there was a game with 2...Nc6 in the Rilton tournament recently- where white was surprisingly effective with 3.g3 g6 4.e4. I have only quickly browsed through it. The guy playing black is usually a strong solid player close to 2400 in Swedish rating, iirc - but in this game he seems to have chosen the wrong set-up. Keeping the KG-door open a while longer with 3...e5 4.Bg2 Nf6 would be my way to play it - but I guess that he didn't expect e4 to follow so soon after g3. And once you're 'wrong footed' in the Dutch it usually only gets worse and quickly too.
8...d6-d5 is not a fun move to make, 8...e7-e5 must be preferable imo - but then somebody'll start fritz and tell me how wrong I am
Ängskog K. - Semcesen D.
Rilton Cup 38 (2008-09) (9)
1. Sf3 f5 2. d3 Sc6 3. g3 g6 4. e4 d6 5. exf5 Lxf5 6. d4 Sf6 7. Lg2 Dd7 8. O-O d5 9. Lf4 O-O-O 10. Sbd2 Lg7 11. Se5 Sxe5 12. Lxe5 g5 13. Sb3 b6 14. a4 e6 15. a5 Se8 16. De2 Dc6 17. axb6 axb6 18. c4 Le4 19. cxd5 exd5 20. Lxg7 Sxg7 21. Ta7 Se8 22. Lh3+ Td7 23. Tc1 Dd6 24. Ta8+ 1-0