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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1 (Read 33716 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #26 - 07/18/10 at 17:06:18
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Thanks for sharing the move 26...e4, looks interesting indeed and changes assesment of one of the more critical line in e5 system. However at http://openingtheory.wordpress.com/ they hastly look at the this traditional e5 line and they dont recommend this line for black becouse white can play 16 h5! g5 17 c4!. Since I play Bc4 yugoslav as white and used to play Nxc3 system (these days I prefere Carlsen Bxd4 Qxd4 Qb6 Na4 Qc7 system) I have never look at this but it might be worth a look.

Also Expert vs Sicilian lines are getting dated as later highlevels encounters has changed several lines (most notably in Nxc3 and Bxd4 lines and perhaps even e5 line now) and introduced new moves and black concepts as well as new white ideas for an advantage.
« Last Edit: 07/18/10 at 21:20:06 by MNb »  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #25 - 07/18/10 at 12:52:02
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Facing Angel Martin a couple of days ago (a former Spanish champion, has played the Dragon all his life) I looked at the 10.Kb1 line and it seems to me that white doesnot have any advantage.

I actually played the line recommended by Golubev in experts vs the sicilian. The game was drawn even though I was winning (basically by him avoiding the draw). It is based on the game Korneev-Komljenovic, which white won, but black should have the better chances in that ending.

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Position after 19.Qf2 Nf4 20.Be6 Ne6

Here Golubev recommends swapping four rooks (21.Rd8 Rd8 22.Rd1 Rd1 23.Kd1 Qa5 24.a3 Nc5 25.Qc5 Qc5 26.Nc5

but in this position

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black plays 26...e4 (instead of Komljenovic's 26...f6) and if white manages to draw, it is a very, very hard struggle.

So currently, I can not see any peace for white in the 9.0-0-0 var....

(10.Qe1 is pretty horrid too)

Proof is that, in a later game, Korneev chose another line...

Angel Martin (IM) knew the game and he thought it was a draw. I believe white is strugling...

  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #24 - 06/22/10 at 18:32:50
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The game Nisipeanu - Carlsen, commented by Dorozenco: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6440
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #23 - 06/22/10 at 07:59:25
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I think that they both think that the Dragon is a correct and challenging opening. It remains a mystery to me why the opponents dont play the most critical theorical lines like 9... d5 10.exd Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 or the variation with Bc4 and Kb1 like Topalov and Anand did with success against him ...
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #22 - 06/19/10 at 20:31:28
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Carlsen strikes me as less of a theoretician and more of a practical player that seeks results more than theoretical battles.

I doubt Gary told him to play the King's Gambit, or French (both fairly recently), but he did anyway.
  
2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #21 - 06/19/10 at 19:23:58
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I really would like to know, if Magnus is just gambling, when he plays the dragon and trusts in his strength in unbalanced even slightly worse positions or if he estimates the dragon as a "correct" opening. I thought Garri´s influence is so strong, that he would play the najdorf exclusively.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #20 - 06/19/10 at 16:16:35
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Game play today
  
Nisipeanu_carlsen.pgn ( 5 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #19 - 03/11/10 at 07:59:52
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ih8sens wrote on 12/17/09 at 04:45:17:
I can't wrap my mind around one thing. ... why isn't black just fine after 11. ... Nxf3.

Any theory would help.  

Thanks,
-matt


Good question.  I had a hard time understanding that too.  At least the games played with it don't seem to give the strong impression that White is better.

Anyway, for a short answer, I analyzed this while working on my Dragon book project this summer and my main line was 11...Nxf3 12.gxf3 Nh5 13.Nxd5! Be6 14.f4! Bxd5 15.Qxd5 Qxd5 16.Rxd5 Bh6 17.Be2!N.

This is what I wrote to explain it:  "...One point is that a rook coming to the c-file won't gain a tempo on the bishop (like in the case of 17.Bc4).  Another point is that the idea Bxh5 can come into play in various lines, either to leave Black with a cripped majority and solidify the f4-pawn, or even as part of a mating attack in some instances...."

There are various lines and basically I think White's play with his queenside majority is more dangerous than Black's on the other wing.  It's possible that I made a mistake somewhere or that White's advantage is not all that big, though.

Edit:  I haven't seen Roman's DVD, so I'm not sure what he says, but whatever it is, if this isn't a line he skipped over like 12...exf6, I'd go with what he said.
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #18 - 01/11/10 at 10:33:45
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About Swiss Dragons line A

b6 is much better than b5 since b6 pawn can prepare Bc5 in some lines as well as proteced a pawn to a5 and rule out move to c5 from whtie Queen.
White will however still win the Bishop and black will get the h pawn in return. Black has two pawns for the exchange as well as a 4-1 pawn majorety at kingside. This reminds me of some Botvinnik semislav positions with similear majoretys where computers does not have a clue on whats is going on. However, black is still tied down on the back rank so it is very unclear.
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #17 - 01/06/10 at 17:20:52
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@Swiss_Dragon
Thanks for your sharing your lines. When I watched Landa-Vocaturo, I checked the Nisipeanu-Radjabov game again. And in their game (your line A) I analysed 
22. Kc2 Qa4+ 23. Kxd2 Qxf4+ 24. Kd1 Qg4+ (not mentioned before, I think) 25. Kc1 Qf4+ 26. Kb1 (if White wants to play for the win) Qh6 27. Qc7 b5 28. Rxc8 Rxc8 29. Qxc8 a5 30. Qc6 b4 31. cxb4 axb4
The point is that here White is slightly up materially – exchange vs. pawn – but has severe problems to make any progress. If ever he could create a passed pawn at the queen's side, his king will be bare of any pawn protection. This should give Black possibly enough counterplay to hold the game.
« Last Edit: 01/06/10 at 19:13:40 by Papageno »  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #16 - 01/06/10 at 15:56:16
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Intersesting lines, thanks for sharing it, I thought that King takes was good for black but I can not find any significant improvment in these lines. Perhaps black best option is to contiune in sacrifical style with 18 .. Be6 instead but white must be at least slightly better there too. I will be intersting to see what Carlsen and Radjabov had intended to play in these lines ... (or else maybee this system is busted).
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #15 - 01/05/10 at 16:23:43
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This whole line looks rather risky for Black. Let's start with the game position of Nisipeanu-Radjabov and Landa-Vocaturo after 22.Kc2.

A) 22...Qa4 23.Kxd2!? Qf4+ 24.Kd1 Qh6 25.Rhe1 f4 26.Re2 (Rogozenko's suggestion)
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and I think White is better. 
For example 26...b5 27.Qd5 Rb8 28.Qc5 and say 29...Ra8 30.Rxc8 Rxc8 31.Qxc8 Qxh2 32.Qe8 when I would clearly prefer White, although Rybka gives only an advantage of +0.35 for White.

B) 22...Qxe8 23.Qxe8 Ne4 24.Rd1 Nf6 25.Qd8 Kg7 26.Qc7 Be6 27.Qxb7 Re8 28.Qxa7 Bd5 (what else?)
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and now 29.Rxd5!? Nxd5 30.a4 looks very dangerous for Black. 
For example 30...Ne3+ 31.Kb1 Nxg2 32.a5 Re4 33.a6 Nxf4 34.Qb6 Nd5 35.Qb7 Re6 36.a7 Nb6 38.b4 and Black may be able to defend, but White has most of the fun, I think.  Undecided
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #14 - 01/04/10 at 08:57:15
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Interestign game indeed. Black diverted first from a Radjabov game!

Some thoughts

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "129"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. Kb1 Nxd4 11. e5 Nf5 12. exf6 exf6 13. Bc5 d4 14. Bxf8 Qxf8
15. Nb5 Ne3 16. Re1 f5 17. f4 Qc5 18. c3 Nxf1 (18... Be6 19. Nxd4 Nxf1 20.
Rhxf1 Bd5 {is of couse also a possibelety but white is of course slightly
better} 21. Rf2 (21. Rd1 Qc4 22. Nb3 Be4+ 23. Ka1 a5 24. Qe3 Bd5 25. Qc5 Qxc5
26. Nxc5 Bxg2) 21... Rd8 22. Nb3 Qc6 23. Qe3 Bxg2 24. Rd2 Rc8) 19. Re8+ Bf8 20.
Qxd4 Qxb5 21. Qd8 Nd2+ 22. Kc2 Qxe8 (22... Qa4+ {was Radjabovs choiche and is
stronger} 23. Kc1 Qxe8 24. Qxe8 Ne4 25. Rd1 Nf6 26. Qd8 Kg7 27. Qc7 Be6 28.
Qxb7 Rc8 29. Qxa7 Bc5 {unclear since the f pawn will drop after the check at e3
}) 23. Qxe8 Ne4 24. Rd1 Nf6 25. Qd8 Nh5 {after this computer heavely favors
white} (25... Kg7 26. Qc7 Be6 27. Qxb7 Re8 (27... Rc8 {does not work in this
position} 28. Qxa7 Bc5 29. Qa5 Be3 30. g3) 28. b3 (28. Qxa7 Bd5) 28... Bc5 {
white is slighty better}) 26. g3 (26. Qc7 Be6 27. Qxb7 Rc8 28. g3) 26... Ng7
27. Rd7 Ne6 28. Qe8 Bxd7 29. Qxa8 Bc6 30. Qxa7 {this scenaro represent what
black shoudl avoid at all costs, the queenside pawn are desicive} Bc5 31. Qb8+
Kg7 32. Qe5+ Kg8 33. Qb8+ Nf8 34. Qd8 Bg1 35. Qd1 Bb6 36. Qd6 h5 37. b4 Ne6 38.
Qb8+ Kh7 39. Qd6 Kg8 40. Qb8+ Kh7 41. Qd6 Bg1 42. Qd2 Nc7 43. Qe1 Be4+ 44. Kb3
Ba7 45. a4 Nd5 46. c4 Nf6 47. c5 h4 48. Qc3 Ng4 49. h3 Nf2 50. Qf6 Bd5+ 51. Ka3
hxg3 52. Qh4+ Kg7 53. Qxg3 Ne4 54. Qd3 Bc6 55. Qd8 g5 56. fxg5 f4 57. h4 f3 58.
h5 f2 59. h6+ Kg6 60. Qg8+ Kf5 61. Qxf7+ Kg4 62. g6 Bd5 63. Qxf2 Nxf2 64. h7
Bb8 65. g7 *

  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #13 - 01/04/10 at 06:21:03
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Landa,K (2664) - Vocaturo,D (2500)
52nd It Reggio Emilia ITA (6), 2010.01.03
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O d5 10.Kb1 Nxd4 11.e5 Nf5 12.exf6 exf6 13.Bc5 d4 14.Bxf8 Qxf8 15.Nb5 Ne3 16.Re1 f5 17.f4 Qc5 18.c3 Nxf1 19.Re8+ Bf8 20.Qxd4 Qxb5 21.Qd8 Nd2+ 22.Kc2 Qxe8 23.Qxe8 Ne4 24.Rd1 Nf6 25.Qd8 Nh5 26.g3 Ng7 27.Rd7 Ne6 28.Qe8 Bxd7 29.Qxa8 Bc6 30.Qxa7 Bc5 31.Qb8+ Kg7 32.Qe5+ Kg8 33.Qb8+ Nf8 34.Qd8 Bg1 35.Qd1 Bb6 36.Qd6 h5 37.b4 Ne6 38.Qb8+ Kh7 39.Qd6 Kg8 40.Qb8+ Kh7 41.Qd6 Bg1 42.Qd2 Nc7 43.Qe1 Be4+ 44.Kb3 Ba7 45.a4 Nd5 46.c4 Nf6 47.c5 h4 48.Qc3 Ng4 49.h3 Nf2 50.Qf6 Bd5+ 51.Ka3 hxg3 52.Qh4+ Kg7 53.Qxg3 Ne4 54.Qd3 Bc6 55.Qd8 g5 56.fxg5 f4 57.h4 f3 58.h5 f2 59.h6+ Kg6 60.Qg8+ Kf5 61.Qxf7+ Kg4 62.g6 Bd5 63.Qxf2 Nxf2 64.h7 Bb8 65.g7 1-0

Based on the analysis by bragesjo above I believe White deviated first with 19.Re8+.  I was wondering if this truly represented an improvement for White.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 d5 Kb1
Reply #12 - 12/17/09 at 09:45:48
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As I recall white is genrelly thought to have a slight edge after 11 .. Nxf3 but I dont play this line as white so I do not know whites best options or the theory, I dont think the line has been propely analysed in the computer era.

If someone has the dvd "Dragon in Jeapardy" we might know for shure. 

However local store never took in so I dont have it but I heared that they recommended this system Kb1 system for white but on the other hand the disc dimmised this exf6 d4 line after 5 seconds and 0 moves that it was not a serious option for black and looking into databases in 2 minutes would provide all answers.
  
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