Latest Updates:
Poll
Poll Question: How often do you play the Colle?



« Created by: Rookpawn on: 01/18/09 at 17:40:56 »
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Do you play the Colle? (Read 15868 times)
1.b4
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love 1.b4!

Posts: 11
Location: Germany
Joined: 03/17/09
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #30 - 04/22/09 at 14:51:13
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 04/22/09 at 14:43:05:
1.b4 wrote on 04/22/09 at 13:13:53:
Therefore i play the Tromp after 1. ... Nf6  Smiley

After 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 b6 (which i often face) 3. Nbd2 with the idea of playing 4.e4 is interesting.


You could even be so bold as to play 3. e4.


Uahh! You´re of course right. Cheesy
So after 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Ndb2 allows to play 4.e4 after 3. ... b6. And you play Nbd2 anyway in the Colle.
  

[Event "CZE-ch"]&&[Site "Turnov"]&&[Date "1996"]&&[Round "10"]&&[White "Vokac,Marek"]&&[Black "Bazant,Petr Sr"]&&[Eco "A00"]&&1.b4 d5 2.Bb2 Nd7 3.Nf3 Ngf6 4.e3 g6 5.c4 dxc4 6.Bxc4 Bg7 7.Bxf7+&&1-0
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4422
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #29 - 04/22/09 at 14:43:05
Post Tools
1.b4 wrote on 04/22/09 at 13:13:53:
Therefore i play the Tromp after 1. ... Nf6  Smiley

After 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 b6 (which i often face) 3. Nbd2 with the idea of playing 4.e4 is interesting.


You could even be so bold as to play 3. e4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
1.b4
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love 1.b4!

Posts: 11
Location: Germany
Joined: 03/17/09
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #28 - 04/22/09 at 13:13:53
Post Tools
Therefore i play the Tromp after 1. ... Nf6  Smiley

After 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 b6 (which i often face) 3. Nbd2 with the idea of playing 4.e4 is interesting.
  

[Event "CZE-ch"]&&[Site "Turnov"]&&[Date "1996"]&&[Round "10"]&&[White "Vokac,Marek"]&&[Black "Bazant,Petr Sr"]&&[Eco "A00"]&&1.b4 d5 2.Bb2 Nd7 3.Nf3 Ngf6 4.e3 g6 5.c4 dxc4 6.Bxc4 Bg7 7.Bxf7+&&1-0
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MilenPetrov
Senior Member
****
Offline


Winnie the Pooh Rules
:)

Posts: 353
Location: Varna, Bulgaria
Joined: 04/03/08
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #27 - 04/22/09 at 06:25:16
Post Tools
Yep, transfering the game to the 4.e3 or some minor variation of the QID Smiley.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10323
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #26 - 04/21/09 at 22:37:56
Post Tools
Aha, I sea what you mean. After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 b6 3.e3 Bb7 White's best chance indeed is to play c2-c4 at some stage.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MilenPetrov
Senior Member
****
Offline


Winnie the Pooh Rules
:)

Posts: 353
Location: Varna, Bulgaria
Joined: 04/03/08
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #25 - 04/21/09 at 07:24:55
Post Tools
For me the simplest solution is to play 2...b6 after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 inviting White to enter the QID.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10323
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #24 - 04/21/09 at 03:42:10
Post Tools
LOL, how do you prevent 1.d4, 2.Nf3, 3.e3 then? You don't play the Englund, do you?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MilenPetrov
Senior Member
****
Offline


Winnie the Pooh Rules
:)

Posts: 353
Location: Varna, Bulgaria
Joined: 04/03/08
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #23 - 04/20/09 at 18:20:52
Post Tools
I never reached Colle in my practice. Simply because my opening repertoire is such constructed that I do not allow such extravagant lines Wink
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
trw
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1235
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #22 - 04/19/09 at 18:26:15
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 04/17/09 at 03:27:38:
After 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.e3 Bg4 I think the Colle completely harmless.



This is the system I employ to great effect for black.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1673
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #21 - 04/18/09 at 16:10:09
Post Tools
Glenn Snow wrote on 04/18/09 at 12:09:08:
MNb wrote on 04/18/09 at 01:18:14:
Black has won about 50% of the games according to my database after 7...Nc6.


I can't remember what the recommendation after 7...Nc6 was (after 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.c4 Bg7 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be2 0-0 7.0-0) but I'd say White has at least some edge after 8.d5! Ne5 9.Qb3.  7...Nc6 certainly makes things more interesting but Kraii actually believed Black's best response was 7...c5 because after 8.dxc5 dxc5 there's nothing White can do to stop Black from achieving ...e5.  Instead White should probably just play 8.Qc2 and perhaps follow up with Rb1 or Rd1  or both and play d5 in certain circumstances.  White doesn't really have a lot in this line but his position is still easier to play.  As a Leningrad Dutch player I find the whole variation rather annoying so I finally started thinking about playing the other side!  If someone can show me a better way to play for Black, then I'm all for it.   Smiley


A couple of corrections.  First, this was recommended by IM Vigorito (on here as "fluffy" I believe) and not GM Kraii.  Secondly, after 7...Nc6, he mentions 8.Nxe5 but his primary recommendation is 8.Nd4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1673
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #20 - 04/18/09 at 12:09:08
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 04/18/09 at 01:18:14:
Black has won about 50% of the games according to my database after 7...Nc6.


I can't remember what the recommendation after 7...Nc6 was (after 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.c4 Bg7 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be2 0-0 7.0-0) but I'd say White has at least some edge after 8.d5! Ne5 9.Qb3.  7...Nc6 certainly makes things more interesting but Kraii actually believed Black's best response was 7...c5 because after 8.dxc5 dxc5 there's nothing White can do to stop Black from achieving ...e5.  Instead White should probably just play 8.Qc2 and perhaps follow up with Rb1 or Rd1  or both and play d5 in certain circumstances.  White doesn't really have a lot in this line but his position is still easier to play.  As a Leningrad Dutch player I find the whole variation rather annoying so I finally started thinking about playing the other side!  If someone can show me a better way to play for Black, then I'm all for it.   Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10323
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #19 - 04/18/09 at 01:18:14
Post Tools
Black has won about 50% of the games according to my database after 7...Nc6.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1673
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #18 - 04/17/09 at 17:37:47
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 04/17/09 at 03:27:38:
Against the KID setups the Stonewall strategy seems to be the only way for the Colle player to initiate a kingside attack. I have serious doubts about the prospects though. Maybe that has to do with my prejudices against the Dutch Stonewall.

To me the Colle seems most interesting after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 d5 4.Bd3 etcetera. Play is somewhat similar to the Meran with colours reversed. Piece play against the black king is one important option indeed; think of Colle's famous sacrifice Bxh7+ against O'Hanlon. If Black manages to prevent it White also can try an endgame with the queenside majority. Problem lines for White are 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 d5 4.Bd3 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.0-0 Bd6 7.Nbd7 0-0 8.Qe2 Qc7 9.dxc5 Bxc5 10.e4 h6 and Bb6, as GM Kosten has pointed out in the past. Similar lines with colours reversed do very well for White.

After 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.e3 Bg4 I think the Colle completely harmless.

Against the Classical Dutch it can be used to transpose to the Rubinstein System: 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bd3 followed by 5.0-0 and 6.c4. This is not so easy for Black.

The Colle against the Leningrad offers nothing to White: 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6. If White tries 3.c4 instead, intending to play more regular stuff against the Leningrad, he allows 3...e6 and 4...Bb4(+).


I think White has a solid choice with the Colle against the Leningrad system with 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.c4 Bg7 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be2 0-0 7.0-0 and it's not easy for Black to achieve active play while White probes on the queen side.  This system has been recommended by GM Kraii.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10323
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #17 - 04/17/09 at 03:27:38
Post Tools
Against the KID setups the Stonewall strategy seems to be the only way for the Colle player to initiate a kingside attack. I have serious doubts about the prospects though. Maybe that has to do with my prejudices against the Dutch Stonewall.

To me the Colle seems most interesting after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 d5 4.Bd3 etcetera. Play is somewhat similar to the Meran with colours reversed. Piece play against the black king is one important option indeed; think of Colle's famous sacrifice Bxh7+ against O'Hanlon. If Black manages to prevent it White also can try an endgame with the queenside majority. Problem lines for White are 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 d5 4.Bd3 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.0-0 Bd6 7.Nbd7 0-0 8.Qe2 Qc7 9.dxc5 Bxc5 10.e4 h6 and Bb6, as GM Kosten has pointed out in the past. Similar lines with colours reversed do very well for White.

After 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.e3 Bg4 I think the Colle completely harmless.

Against the Classical Dutch it can be used to transpose to the Rubinstein System: 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bd3 followed by 5.0-0 and 6.c4. This is not so easy for Black.

The Colle against the Leningrad offers nothing to White: 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6. If White tries 3.c4 instead, intending to play more regular stuff against the Leningrad, he allows 3...e6 and 4...Bb4(+).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Offline


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 896
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #16 - 04/16/09 at 18:50:15
Post Tools
I always thought of the Colle as being one of those inherently aggressive "slow build up" openings, similar to the Torre Attack but with the bishop not developed to g5 before playing e3.  At club level many games see a quick e3-e4 from White, followed by the classic "Stonewall" type moves like Ne5, f4, Rf3-h3 etc, and if Black isn't careful White can develop a formidable kingside attack.

I agree with TopNotch that the King's Indian setups are hard to crack, having seen it regularly played against the Colle in recent club games, I'm not sure what White's best bet is against it.  It also works quite well against the Torre I believe.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #15 - 04/16/09 at 13:44:08
Post Tools
trw wrote on 04/11/09 at 00:43:41:
colle is essentially a drawing weapon. I usually only seen it trotted out when a draw will do. It is very hard for white to win ever. I have never lost to the Colle but also have few wins (5 wins 3 draws and no losses I think) all against higher rateds.

I see people like Polgar and others teach it to kids because it is so simple to learn.

I don't consider it a waste of time but clearly its not in white's interest if he's trying to win or at least try for advantage.


Funny, because I always thought that White's kingside piece play could get dangerous in the Colle.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Meat
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 184
Joined: 06/27/06
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #14 - 04/16/09 at 09:05:19
Post Tools
TopNotch wrote on 04/11/09 at 18:48:42:
Colle is an excellent blitz opening, you can whip out the moves mindlessly and quickly without having to pay much attention to what Black is doing.

There is a guy on ICC that plays nothing else and sports a 3000+ blitz rating at times YaacovN I think his name is, extremely boring to watch, but it works for him. His OTB fide rating is about 2200+.

I noticed against the KID and Dutch setups he usually gets less than nothing, but what he lacks in position he more than makes up for by flagging his opponents.

Tops Smiley


I've often wondered if I, as a club player, shouldn't take up one of this mindless systems like the Colle or the Stonewall attack (also a YaacovN favorite). Just playing the same moves and following the same plans over and over again could probably make my life easier and score some simple textbook wins. I've seen dozens of people getting good positions with this kind of stuff (another favorite being the setup c4 Nc3 g3 Bg2 e3 Nge2 0-0 etc.). I play the KID as black and usually manage to get easy equality, but it's really annoying to play against London or Colle setups, especially if white doesn't do much.
My problem is that I firmly believe (after 1. d5 d5) that 2. c4 is the best move, and I refuse to play something else, even if it's not inferior in a practical sense.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1368
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #13 - 04/16/09 at 01:17:15
Post Tools
TopNotch wrote on 04/11/09 at 18:48:42:
There is a guy on ICC that plays nothing else and sports a 3000+ blitz rating at times YaacovN I think his name is, extremely boring to watch, but it works for him. His OTB fide rating is about 2200+.


See here:

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2006/05/yaacov-norowitz-lecture...

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2006/05/stonewall-attack.html
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 1910
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #12 - 04/11/09 at 18:48:42
Post Tools
Colle is an excellent blitz opening, you can whip out the moves mindlessly and quickly without having to pay much attention to what Black is doing.

There is a guy on ICC that plays nothing else and sports a 3000+ blitz rating at times YaacovN I think his name is, extremely boring to watch, but it works for him. His OTB fide rating is about 2200+.

I noticed against the KID and Dutch setups he usually gets less than nothing, but what he lacks in position he more than makes up for by flagging his opponents.

Tops Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1235
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #11 - 04/11/09 at 00:43:41
Post Tools
colle is essentially a drawing weapon. I usually only seen it trotted out when a draw will do. It is very hard for white to win ever. I have never lost to the Colle but also have few wins (5 wins 3 draws and no losses I think) all against higher rateds.

I see people like Polgar and others teach it to kids because it is so simple to learn.

I don't consider it a waste of time but clearly its not in white's interest if he's trying to win or at least try for advantage.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
1.b4
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love 1.b4!

Posts: 11
Location: Germany
Joined: 03/17/09
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #10 - 04/09/09 at 08:01:21
Post Tools
Hi!

I play the Colle only after 1.d4 d5 or 1. ... e6.
After e.g. 1. ... Nf6 i choose the Tromp.

I like the Colle very much, but my results with it are double-edged. You can mow down players with an ELO <1900, but i have never won a single game with it against people like me (~ ELO 2100) or stronger ones. I cannot remember a loss, too but i have to check my games if this is true.

My opinion: a good weapon against players with less theoretical skills or a drawing weapon, if you need one.
  

[Event "CZE-ch"]&&[Site "Turnov"]&&[Date "1996"]&&[Round "10"]&&[White "Vokac,Marek"]&&[Black "Bazant,Petr Sr"]&&[Eco "A00"]&&1.b4 d5 2.Bb2 Nd7 3.Nf3 Ngf6 4.e3 g6 5.c4 dxc4 6.Bxc4 Bg7 7.Bxf7+&&1-0
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
saubhikr
Senior Member
****
Offline


Chess is a cruel game
but I still love it

Posts: 332
Location: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Joined: 10/29/06
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #9 - 02/27/09 at 17:38:05
Post Tools
Looks like 50% people consider Colle as "a waste of time" !!

Any comments ?
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10323
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #8 - 01/29/09 at 00:33:02
Post Tools
You suppose correctly - again a silly typo.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Holbox
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saigón Café

Posts: 369
Joined: 02/08/05
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #7 - 01/28/09 at 15:45:58
Post Tools
Quote:
Against the C-K the idea Nc6-b4 is quite irritating, especially when combined with the idea e6-e5 (so Black's Queen goes to c7 or e7 first, I never manage to remember).


I suppose you mean the C-Z.

  

"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10323
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #6 - 01/28/09 at 00:34:43
Post Tools
Dunno. Against the C-K the idea Nc6-b4 is quite irritating, especially when combined with the idea e6-e5 (so Black's Queen goes to c7 or e7 first, I never manage to remember).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cyronix
Ex Member
*



Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #5 - 01/27/09 at 18:59:23
Post Tools
In my youth I played Colle-Zukertort Wink.
I think right now Susan polgar is recommending it to amateurs.
I consider the Zukertort version superior to the normal colle
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Holbox
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saigón Café

Posts: 369
Joined: 02/08/05
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #4 - 01/27/09 at 16:16:20
Post Tools
I have played some times C-K OTB (as White) and I have never lost with it. Ok, black should equalize..., but no more. And, after this, there is a full game plenty of oportunities (I'm talking about ...Nbd7, or ...Nc6 main lines). In many cases black tries to be original..., then, usually, he is lost in less than 30 moves. But even there, exists The Colle Ending, which is a good weapon in hands of an experienced player.

That's my opinion.
  

"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #3 - 01/27/09 at 15:35:06
Post Tools
I put never, not because I "consider it a waste of time," but because I consider it less strong than 2.c4.

Want to avoid the Colle?  Answer 1.d4 with 1...resigns!
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1382
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #2 - 01/27/09 at 12:29:18
Post Tools
Want to avoid the Colle? Answer 1 d4 with 1...e5!
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: Do you play the Colle?
Reply #1 - 01/21/09 at 18:52:14
Post Tools
I do not play the Colle and probably never will do but I must say it has something. I hate to see my opponent playing it with white and my record against it is quite bad (35-40%). Maybe it is to quiet a type of play for me?!
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rookpawn
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/09/08
Gender: Male
Do you play the Colle?
01/18/09 at 17:40:56
Post Tools
An interest
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo