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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Old Indian? (Read 50157 times)
Ludde
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #32 - 06/21/10 at 08:05:15
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Didn't Larsen play the OID quite a lot in the 80s? He even drew with it against Kasparov I believe, even though he was lost...maybe 1983
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #31 - 06/18/10 at 20:04:37
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I agree, and I would add that the reason that is true is that these openings are rarely played with a plan in mind; they're played by low-rated players in order to avoid the theory they haven't studied and the sharp positions they get blown away in, and by high rated players who want to "play chess" against lower rated opposition without permitting their opponent to get to any sort of position where they might have special understanding.

For instance:

London System played against the KID by a master facing an expert.

A class player taking on an expert plays the OID with the idea of avoiding anything critical and making a draw.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #30 - 06/10/10 at 17:54:54
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LeeRoth wrote on 06/10/10 at 17:20:10:
Nigel Davies shows an old Eric Lobron win in the lastest issue of ChessBase Magazine. 

I wonder if they'll be a DVD?  The Old Inidan strikes me as an opening that would be good for a DVD as you play it on concepts, not theory. 


I was just thinking about how there's a clear advantage for guys like Davies and Martin to present openings like the Czech Benoni and the Old Indian as Black, and things like the Tromp and London as White. They are fairly solid and practical, and it's an opening that when presenting illustrative games, you can show games where mistakes are harder to pinpoint, and wins from either side look quite easy. Likewise, it's difficult to pinpoint the best plan for White, and thus the presenter can get away with not covering much at all in this regard. Sad really.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #29 - 06/10/10 at 17:20:10
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Nigel Davies shows an old Eric Lobron win in the lastest issue of ChessBase Magazine. 

I wonder if there will be a DVD?  The Old Inidan strikes me as an opening that would be good for a DVD as you play it on concepts, not theory. 
  
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Markovich
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #28 - 02/09/09 at 19:09:34
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Dragan Glas wrote on 02/09/09 at 16:25:50:
Greetings,

@Markovich

If your Russian is up to it, there's Positional Ideas In The Old Indian by Vladimir Pozharsky. Wink

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas


Unfortunately, though I can eke out the approximate pronunciation of Russian words, the language is opaque to me.  I could probably puzzle through "White has the advantage," but not the sort of thing I would expect to find in this work.  Too bad, it sounds like a fascinating book.
  

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Dragan Glas
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #27 - 02/09/09 at 16:25:50
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Greetings,

@Markovich

If your Russian is up to it, there's Positional Ideas In The Old Indian by Vladimir Pozharsky. Wink

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #26 - 01/23/09 at 21:38:05
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Yep.  I seem to recall it "analyzing"/advocating the Stonewall (for White), but then I also seem to recall a letter to Larry Evans' column which went like this ...

Q:  In his book "Baroque Chess Openings," Richard Wincor claims that 1. d3 [uh, P-Q3] is "the perfect opening move."  Can he possibly be serious?
A:  2000 years ago someone observed, "Times are bad.  Children no longer listen to their parents and everyone is writing a book."
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #25 - 01/23/09 at 21:21:59
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I think there also may have been Old Indian coverage in Baroque Chess Openings.  Remember that one?





  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #24 - 01/23/09 at 20:09:14
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I remember that Soltis book; I also remember one by L. M. Pickett (whose opening books weren't of the highest quality) which advocated a particular version/move order with 1...Nf6, 2...d6, 3...c6, 4...Qc7 and 5...Nbd7, or some such.  I believe that exhausts my knowledge of Old Indian books ...
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #23 - 01/23/09 at 19:54:22
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I used to play the Old Indian once in a while back in the 80s.  My source was a small Chess Digest book by Soltis, which I think was called the Not So Old Indian or something like that.  I haven't kept up with the theory, but some general observations based on my own, admittedly dated, experience:

Most of the main lines are probably +/= in that White has more space, the chance to call the tune for a while, and a generally easier game.  But Black is very solid, and I don't see where he should lose.  My typical game would involve a lot of maneuvering, then White would make his move (usually, but not always the c5 break), there'd be a flurry of tactics and then an ending.  Endings tended to be equal or better for Black.   

In terms of White systems, I always thought the main lines were the most testing -- by that I mean the A55 lines where White plays c4,d4,e4,Nc3,Nf3 and Be2.  In particular, I found the set up with Qc2 and Rd1 annoying, since it makes things uncomfortable for the Black Queen.  One thing you'll learn if you play the Old Indian is that the Black Queen is never really happy on c7 due to tactics down the c-file.       

  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #22 - 01/23/09 at 15:41:07
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Markovich wrote on 01/23/09 at 13:40:49:
kylemeister wrote on 01/21/09 at 20:26:40:
Holbox wrote on 01/21/09 at 18:02:18:
When some one plays f3 against the OI usually i try to exchange the
Dark Squared Bishops with the typical manoubre ...Ne8 and ...Bg5. Then black drives on the dark squares. This exchange is easier to get and more appropriate than in the KID variation because there are not weak DS's arround black's king.

I can't underdstand that a white setup without e4 can be strong against the OI. Against this kind of tame play black should try to expand in the center with d5, I think.



I think that White would often aim to meet that ...Ne8 and ...Bg5 with f4, in at least some cases prepared by g3.



Black also has an f-pawn, of course, and I would think he'd be pretty interested in pushing it (after ...Ne8) with White committed to d5 and g3.  f4 unprepared by g3 I would suppose Black would meet with ...exf4.  

I'm just winging this, looking at it in my head.  Honestly I was quite unaware that anyone thought that f3 was anything White should play against the OI.  


I was thinking of Black playing for ...Bg5 as soon as possible, as well as cases with ...c6 and d5 in.  One GM encounter I notice with the second scenario is Agrest-Jansa 1999.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #21 - 01/23/09 at 13:40:49
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kylemeister wrote on 01/21/09 at 20:26:40:
Holbox wrote on 01/21/09 at 18:02:18:
When some one plays f3 against the OI usually i try to exchange the
Dark Squared Bishops with the typical manoubre ...Ne8 and ...Bg5. Then black drives on the dark squares. This exchange is easier to get and more appropriate than in the KID variation because there are not weak DS's arround black's king.

I can't underdstand that a white setup without e4 can be strong against the OI. Against this kind of tame play black should try to expand in the center with d5, I think.



I think that White would often aim to meet that ...Ne8 and ...Bg5 with f4, in at least some cases prepared by g3.



Black also has an f-pawn, of course, and I would think he'd be pretty interested in pushing it (after ...Ne8) with White committed to d5 and g3.  f4 unprepared by g3 I would suppose Black would meet with ...exf4.  

I'm just winging this, looking at it in my head.  Honestly I was quite unaware that anyone thought that f3 was anything White should play against the OI.  
  

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MNb
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #20 - 01/22/09 at 10:04:33
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...Nbd7 is main line vs the Fianchetto but ...Nc6 is more popular vs the Classical. So one might argue that the Classical vs the Old-Indian takes benefit from Black's early ...Nbd7.
If White plays the Fianchetto vs the OID it's logical to do the same vs the KID. And Markovich prefers the Four Pawns.
If White plays the Classical vs the OID (s)he avoids the hot ...Nc6 stuff might Black transpose to the KID.

kylemeister wrote on 01/22/09 at 04:08:48:
In the line of your first paragraph, your move order seems unusual, but in any case the way all sources I know of "want" White to play is 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. e4 e5 5. Nge2 Be7 6. f3 c6 7. Be3 0-0 8. d5.  If 8...a5 there, ECO and Taimanov (Königsindisch bis Altindisch) like 9. g4 as in Marjanovic-Maranguinic, Bled/Portoroz 1979.


Thanks, I had missed this game. Once again is clear how valuable Taimanov's golden oldies are. I had the chance to buy this one 25 years ago, but foolishly thought I would never need it.
Black might not play 11...Ne8 as Maranguinic did, but 11...a4. This will transpose to Zhu Chen-Dumitrache, Cappelle 1998, where 18...a3 looks very interesting.
« Last Edit: 01/23/09 at 00:41:14 by MNb »  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #19 - 01/22/09 at 04:08:48
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MNb wrote on 01/22/09 at 02:50:49:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Ndb7 4.e4 e5 5.f3 c6 6.Be3 Be7 the question is: should White play d4-d5 or not?
If yes then I always have thought Yanofsky-Najdorf, Olympiade Amsterdam 1954 exemplary: 7.d5 0-0 8.Bd3 Nc5 9.Nge2 cxd5 10.cxd5 Nfd7 11.0-0 Bg5. If 8.Qd2 then ...a5. It is important to play ...c6 and secure c5 for the knight. Only then Black will decide to initiate counterplay either on the Queen's or on the King's Wing.
If no then going for ...d5 looks good: 7.Qd2 0-0 8.Nge2 d5! Other moves than 8.Nge2 have not been tested sufficiently, but += seems not justified yet.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Nf3 (4.Bg5 h6 5.Bh4 g5 Bronstein-Petrosjan, Candidates Zürich 1953) e5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 h6 (to deprive White from the sac h2-h4 should Black have to play ...h6 later) 7.Bh4 c6 8.Qc2 and now Kaidanov-Bosboom, Groningen Open 1990, seems to be the key game. Despite his loss Bosboom repeated this line twice, with success. So again += might be too early.

I understand Markovich. If White plays the Sämisch or Four Pawns against the KID (s)he might not want to chose the Classical or the Fianchetto vs. the OID. Still, especially in corr. chess, the first option might be best: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.e4 e5 5.Nf3 Be7 6.Be2 0-0 7.0-0 c6 8.Re1 and there is no ...Nc6 with mating attacks to follow.


In the line of your first paragraph, your move order seems unusual, but in any case the way all sources I know of "want" White to play is 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. e4 e5 5. Nge2 Be7 6. f3 c6 7. Be3 0-0 8. d5.  If 8...a5 there, ECO and Taimanov (Königsindisch bis Altindisch) like 9. g4 as in Marjanovic-Maranguinic, Bled/Portoroz 1979. 

Leaving aside that and Kaidanov-Bosboom (considered += by NCO, not mentioned by the others), I'm not sure why you suggest a preference for the Classical over the Fianchetto, since it seems to me that both of those have "always and everywhere" been considered slightly better for White.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #18 - 01/22/09 at 02:50:49
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After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Ndb7 4.e4 e5 5.f3 c6 6.Be3 Be7 the question is: should White play d4-d5 or not?
If yes then I always have thought Yanofsky-Najdorf, Olympiade Amsterdam 1954 exemplary: 7.d5 0-0 8.Bd3 Nc5 9.Nge2 cxd5 10.cxd5 Nfd7 11.0-0 Bg5. If 8.Qd2 then ...a5. It is important to play ...c6 and secure c5 for the knight. Only then Black will decide to initiate counterplay either on the Queen's or on the King's Wing.
If no then going for ...d5 looks good: 7.Qd2 0-0 8.Nge2 d5! Other moves than 8.Nge2 have not been tested sufficiently, but += seems not justified yet.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Nf3 (4.Bg5 h6 5.Bh4 g5 Bronstein-Petrosjan, Candidates Zürich 1953) e5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 h6 (to deprive White from the sac h2-h4 should Black have to play ...h6 later) 7.Bh4 c6 8.Qc2 and now Kaidanov-Bosboom, Groningen Open 1990, seems to be the key game. Despite his loss Bosboom repeated this line twice, with success. So again += might be too early.

I understand Markovich. If White plays the Sämisch or Four Pawns against the KID (s)he might not want to chose the Classical or the Fianchetto vs. the OID. Still, especially in corr. chess, the first option might be best: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.e4 e5 5.Nf3 Be7 6.Be2 0-0 7.0-0 c6 8.Re1 and there is no ...Nc6 with mating attacks to follow.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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