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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Old Indian? (Read 43304 times)
Bibs
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #47 - 01/19/14 at 08:16:51
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GabrielGale wrote on 01/19/14 at 03:29:15:
@ Bibs/BPaulsen, I assume both of you mean the following book:
Alexander Cherniav, The New Old Indian?
I have been curious about the book and there has not been much discussion about the lines nor the book.
Thanks for your assessment.


Yes, that's right.
You can build a robust repertoire with such lines as contained therein, with the added advantage that white players will have to think a little.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #46 - 01/19/14 at 03:29:15
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@ Bibs/BPaulsen, I assume both of you mean the following book:
Alexander Cherniav, The New Old Indian?
I have been curious about the book and there has not been much discussion about the lines nor the book.
Thanks for your assessment.
  

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Bibs
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #45 - 01/19/14 at 02:44:34
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BPaulsen wrote on 01/18/14 at 22:49:20:
It's one of the books that I got to look at as part of working on "Play 1.Nf3!". It's a solid work. The quality of the analysis is mostly very good (no book is perfect that I have seen, so this is about the highest mark I can give something), and I had to apply some elbow grease to try to one up it. Given the Old Indian's reputation as "+=, next please", it's high praise, I think.


Thanks for your opinion Bryan. I agree with your verdict - high praise.
I also thought it was very strongly written. A great deal of very interesting material. Clearly presented, professionally written, and well-analysed.
I have been playing KID and early ...d6 stuff for A Very Long Time, yet much here was still very helpful for me, and I learnt a lot.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #44 - 01/18/14 at 22:49:20
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It's one of the books that I got to look at as part of working on "Play 1.Nf3!". It's a solid work. The quality of the analysis is mostly very good (no book is perfect that I have seen, so this is about the highest mark I can give something), and I had to apply some elbow grease to try to one up it. Given the Old Indian's reputation as "+=, next please", it's high praise, I think.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #43 - 01/17/14 at 22:55:44
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Bump
Further thoughts on the Old Indian?
Specifically on 'The New Old Indian' text?
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #42 - 10/12/13 at 10:46:04
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tony37 wrote on 10/12/13 at 10:22:56:
Igor wrote on 10/12/13 at 08:38:50:
The translation is correct, but the Russians call "old indian" ("staroindiska sazcita" http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Староиндийская_защита ) the King's Indian  Tongue
The link doesn't work right now, but I can confirm that Pozharsky's book, "Chess Manual, vol. 2 - Positional Ideas In The Old Indian" covers only KID setups (g6, Bg7 etc)

and how do they call the Old Indian? when I look at the translation at Wikipedia it just says 'Indian Defence' (Индийская защита)

Right!  Wink
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #41 - 10/12/13 at 10:22:56
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Igor wrote on 10/12/13 at 08:38:50:
The translation is correct, but the Russians call "old indian" ("staroindiska sazcita" http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Староиндийская_защита ) the King's Indian  Tongue
The link doesn't work right now, but I can confirm that Pozharsky's book, "Chess Manual, vol. 2 - Positional Ideas In The Old Indian" covers only KID setups (g6, Bg7 etc)

and how do they call the Old Indian? when I look at the translation at Wikipedia it just says 'Indian Defence' (Индийская защита)
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #40 - 10/12/13 at 08:38:50
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Dragan Glas wrote on 02/09/09 at 16:25:50:
Greetings,

@Markovich

If your Russian is up to it, there's Positional Ideas In The Old Indian by Vladimir Pozharsky. Wink

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas


The translation is correct, but the Russians call "old indian" ("staroindiska sazcita" http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Староиндийская_защита ) the King's Indian  Tongue
The link doesn't work right now, but I can confirm that Pozharsky's book, "Chess Manual, vol. 2 - Positional Ideas In The Old Indian" covers only KID setups (g6, Bg7 etc)
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #39 - 07/10/11 at 10:11:43
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Nelson wrote on 06/22/11 at 13:11:58:
One of my first observations is that the following is not covered (unless I've missed it):-

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6 3 Nc3 e5 4 Nf3 e4 5 Nd2 Qe7 6 g3 (even though Alex had played a game in this variation last year and struggled to obtain equality)

6 g3 just looks like a sensible move to me.

Regards,

Nelson Cool

Actually, he covers 6 g3 in Chapter 1 in four different sequences:
5 Ng5 Qe7
5 Ng5 Bf5
5 Nd2 Qe7
5 Nd2 Bf5
Smiley

What I'm a little wary of is that albeit Black finds good play in almost all variations, the road seems to change from game to game. For example in chapter one he gives a nice overview of white's possible strategies after 4 .. e4. Perhaps it would have been nice to get such an overview of black's strategies too? I guess if I play through all the games very carefully, I will understand better.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #38 - 06/25/11 at 20:02:42
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Dink Heckler wrote on 01/21/09 at 15:43:07:
I used to play the OI a fair bit.

Markovich mentions the Bg5, e3, Qc2 idea, which I think gives quite easy play for White, and thus I would always meet Bg5 with ed followed by g6, to avoid those lines.

Re the ...c5 question, its conceivable that White plays a decidedly suboptimal anti-Czech setup and then Black could try to finesse it by segueing into a Czech Benoni a tempo down. After all, tempi tend to get thrown around with gay abandon in the CB anyway. But in practice, this is rarely appropriate.

Re the OI in general, my opinion is you need a certain sensibility to play it well; knowing when to make an audacious space grab on the Q-side w. ...b5 (after all, W has more space and is usually reasonably set up to counter same), and when to just cockroach and await events.

I suppose my OI epiphany came when I opted for the cockroach approach versus a (very) strong GM. He opted for a g3 setup, I made all the obvious moves and had a perfectly serviceable position. But then I set to thinking, what next...and the 'obvious' answer was to play Be7-f8, g6, Bg7, which is a fairly common manouvre. Then I thought, I'll be ****-ed if I'm going to play the KID several tempi down vs a super-GM, set about looking for 'alternatives', came up with some rubbish, and went down in flames. Which would have happened anyway, no doubt, but the whole thing just felt so...contrived, I guess is the word I'm looking for. I never played it again.


For what it's worth, Kraii in one of his lectures, didn't seem overly impressed with the g3 setup versus the Old Indian.  He said Black had good play with the ...c6, ...a6, ...b5 plan aiming to attack c4 or push to b4 and allowing the Bishop to go to b7.  Perhaps he was too quick to dismiss the White setup though as it still looks pretty solid despite those ideas.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #37 - 06/22/11 at 13:11:58
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One of my first observations is that the following is not covered (unless I've missed it):-

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6 3 Nc3 e5 4 Nf3 e4 5 Nd2 Qe7 6 g3 (even though Alex had played a game in this variation last year and struggled to obtain equality)

6 g3 just looks like a sensible move to me.

Regards,

Nelson Cool
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #36 - 06/21/11 at 15:35:01
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yeah, I'll have to look at that. I've tried it before, but didn't really have a clue what I was doing, or where my counterplay might possibly be Huh
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #35 - 06/21/11 at 11:11:49
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Dear All,

Thought this thread might be worth rejuvenating in light of the new book "The New Old Indian".

There are some refreshing and interesting ideas and the author seems to have played it quite a lot himself.

Regards,

Nelson  Smiley
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #34 - 06/21/10 at 21:45:37
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motörhead wrote on 06/21/10 at 21:28:52:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nf3 Nbd7 4.Nc3 e5 5.e4 Le7 6.Le2 0-0 7.0-0 c6 8.Le3 a6 9.d5


That is one of the lines considered += by ECO and NCO.  Incidentally it reminds me of this:  http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1264436810 .  Of course "+= with best play" is the standard view of the Old Indian.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #33 - 06/21/10 at 21:28:52
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Ludde wrote on 06/21/10 at 08:05:15:
Didn't Larsen play the OID quite a lot in the 80s? He even drew with it against Kasparov I believe, even though he was lost...maybe 1983


Yes indeed. But as far as I know Larsen employed the OID against Kasparov in 1981 Bugoino. And he lost after a nice rook sac (but he shouldn't have to).
In Kaissiber 18/2002 Larsen gave two of his games (Forintos - L., England, BBC 1978, and Hort - L. Tilburg 1979). He won both but he puts them under the headline "Leiden mit Altindisch" transl. "Suffering with OID". "In both cases one could say 'It is possible that Black can hold his own'", he wrote. Not exactly a good marketing quotation, or?

Overall when checking OID games played by experts like Hickl or Espig, I got the feeling that Black is all to often worse in a cramped position. The lack of g7-g6 and the fianchetto of Black's dark squared bishop highlights the problems. He has no active play and the square f5 tends to be weak, a good place for a knight.

As I feel it, White is up in the very simple classical variation.
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nf3 Nbd7 4.Nc3 e5 5.e4 Le7 6.Le2 0-0 7.0-0 c6 8.Le3 a6 9.d5
And as far as I know, there is no way to equal play for Black he gets under severe pressure on the queen's side.
  

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