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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Old Indian? (Read 50156 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #17 - 01/21/09 at 20:26:40
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Holbox wrote on 01/21/09 at 18:02:18:
When some one plays f3 against the OI usually i try to exchange the
Dark Squared Bishops with the typical manoubre ...Ne8 and ...Bg5. Then black drives on the dark squares. This exchange is easier to get and more appropriate than in the KID variation because there are not weak DS's arround black's king.

I can't underdstand that a white setup without e4 can be strong against the OI. Against this kind of tame play black should try to expand in the center with d5, I think.



I think that White would often aim to meet that ...Ne8 and ...Bg5 with f4, in at least some cases prepared by g3.

When White plays f3 plus an early d5, it seems that Black often plays ...Be7, ...Nh5 and ...Bg5.  Here though on 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. e4 e5 5. Nge2 Be7 6. f3 Nh5 White at least has 7. Nd5.  I notice that grandmaster Iuldachev has played 6...c6 7. Be3 Nh5 8. Qd2 h6, though.

Regarding setups without e4, it's my impression that the Bg5/e3/Qc2 stuff has been considered one of White's better tries for decades.  It is presumably difficult for Black to get in a favorable ...d5.
  
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Holbox
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #16 - 01/21/09 at 18:02:18
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When some one plays f3 against the OI usually i try to exchange the
Dark Squared Bishops with the typical manoubre ...Ne8 and ...Bg5. Then black drives on the dark squares. This exchange is easier to get and more appropriate than in the KID variation because there are not weak DS's arround black's king.

I can't underdstand that a white setup without e4 can be strong against the OI. Against this kind of tame play black should try to expand in the center with d5, I think.





  

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kylemeister
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #15 - 01/21/09 at 17:44:46
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Markovich wrote on 01/21/09 at 16:49:19:
kylemeister wrote on 01/21/09 at 16:35:17:
Regarding the Saemisch question, White does sometimes play a "Saemischey" setup against the Old Indian, but it seems that some versions of that lead to positions which are more comfortable for Black than usual.


What, an early f3 against the OI?  I wasn't aware that that anyone considered that a decent setup.



It seems that a version where White refrains from an early d5 (1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. e4 e5 5. Nge2 followed by Saemischey moves; this could also be reached via 3...e5 but perhaps that's less likely) is generally considered slightly better for White.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #14 - 01/21/09 at 16:49:19
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kylemeister wrote on 01/21/09 at 16:35:17:
Regarding the Saemisch question, White does sometimes play a "Saemischey" setup against the Old Indian, but it seems that some versions of that lead to positions which are more comfortable for Black than usual.


What, an early f3 against the OI?  I wasn't aware that that anyone considered that a decent setup.

One move order wrinkle I have noticed in some OI games, which seems to be worth following, is 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c6.  

I presume that Black has in mind that White might meet 2...d6 with 3.Nc3.  Then Black would have to choose between a Pirc, a Philidor, or a tempo-down weird d-pawn with 3...d5.  2...c6 is entirely useful in case of 3.Nc3 d5, and I assume that Black's intention in case of 3.Bg5 is to play 3...Ne4.  The game returns to an OI after 3.c4 d6, where I doubt that the early ...c6 hurts very much.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #13 - 01/21/09 at 16:35:17
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Regarding the Saemisch question, White does sometimes play a "Saemischey" setup against the Old Indian, but it seems that some versions of that lead to positions which are more comfortable for Black than usual.
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #12 - 01/21/09 at 15:43:07
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I used to play the OI a fair bit.

Markovich mentions the Bg5, e3, Qc2 idea, which I think gives quite easy play for White, and thus I would always meet Bg5 with ed followed by g6, to avoid those lines.

Re the ...c5 question, its conceivable that White plays a decidedly suboptimal anti-Czech setup and then Black could try to finesse it by segueing into a Czech Benoni a tempo down. After all, tempi tend to get thrown around with gay abandon in the CB anyway. But in practice, this is rarely appropriate.

Re the OI in general, my opinion is you need a certain sensibility to play it well; knowing when to make an audacious space grab on the Q-side w. ...b5 (after all, W has more space and is usually reasonably set up to counter same), and when to just cockroach and await events.

I suppose my OI epiphany came when I opted for the cockroach approach versus a (very) strong GM. He opted for a g3 setup, I made all the obvious moves and had a perfectly serviceable position. But then I set to thinking, what next...and the 'obvious' answer was to play Be7-f8, g6, Bg7, which is a fairly common manouvre. Then I thought, I'll be ****-ed if I'm going to play the KID several tempi down vs a super-GM, set about looking for 'alternatives', came up with some rubbish, and went down in flames. Which would have happened anyway, no doubt, but the whole thing just felt so...contrived, I guess is the word I'm looking for. I never played it again.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #11 - 01/21/09 at 15:12:13
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 and if White wants to prevent 3. ...e5 then 3.Nf3 and no Samisch.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #10 - 01/21/09 at 14:31:31
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In my understanding of such positions, Black generally prefers to meet d5, at least when played fairly early, by something other than ...c5 (which would perhaps typically give him a tempo-down Czech Benoni, which doesn't seem too attractive).  He would often meet d5 with ...Nc5 when that is feasible, for example. 


Thank you.

Another question: why is told that the old indian move order (1...Nf6, 2...d6) avoids the Samish KID? There is any concrete line which refutes white's plan?


  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #9 - 01/20/09 at 22:28:01
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Holbox wrote on 01/20/09 at 22:03:57:
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Indeed I would think that ...c5 is quite often not the best answer to d5, at least according to the traditional thinking about such things.


Would you like to explain this a bit with "plain" words? I will thank you very much.



In my understanding of such positions, Black generally prefers to meet d5, at least when played fairly early, by something other than ...c5 (which would perhaps typically give him a tempo-down Czech Benoni, which doesn't seem too attractive).  He would often meet d5 with ...Nc5 when that is feasible, for example.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #8 - 01/20/09 at 22:03:57
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Indeed I would think that ...c5 is quite often not the best answer to d5, at least according to the traditional thinking about such things.


Would you like to explain this a bit with "plain" words? I will thank you very much.

  

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kylemeister
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #7 - 01/20/09 at 17:52:38
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Indeed I would think that ...c5 is quite often not the best answer to d5, at least according to the traditional thinking about such things.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #6 - 01/20/09 at 17:40:34
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Holbox wrote on 01/20/09 at 16:48:18:
I trully believe in the Old Indian setup (Idem about Philidor Hanham Setup), but in the post mortem of game I lost against a +2350 Fide Master, he told me:

"I played the Old Indian System several times against GM oposition and I have lost every time".

We were talking about white playing d5 and then black reacting with c5 with similar situation in the center than in the Czech Benoni (as recomended in Martin's Foxy Video).

The conclusion was : white's space advantage is enough to win.

I don't really want to believe it but..., I was under too much presure and finally blundered.





Right. I don't really think it's system to knock off very strong players with. Personally I think that playing a highly theoretical line that you know well or at least a very unbalanced line is the best way to try to bring down the mighty. 

Also I'm not sure, but I don't think that ...c5 is always the best reaction to d5.  Most of Black's counterplay goes away and White is at leisure to play b4 and invade the queenside.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #5 - 01/20/09 at 16:48:18
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I trully believe in the Old Indian setup (Idem about Philidor Hanham Setup), but in the post mortem of game I lost against a +2350 Fide Master, he told me:

"I played the Old Indian System several times against GM oposition and I have lost every time".

We were talking about white playing d5 and then black reacting with c5 with similar situation in the center than in the Czech Benoni (as recomended in Martin's Foxy Video).

The conclusion was : white's space advantage is enough to win.

I don't really want to believe it but..., I was under too much presure and finally blundered.



  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #4 - 01/20/09 at 15:57:44
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Greetings,

From what I've seen, it appears to be as sound as Philidor's Defence, to which it bears a resemblance - in fact, it's quite possible that there may be transpositional possibilities if both players head that way,

365Chess has a section on it, including lots of games.

The statistics look interesting - after 3.Nc3, 3..., Nbd7 appears to do better than 3..., e5.

From my interest in him, I know of Corzo-Capablanca, Havana 1913, amongst others.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Markovich
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #3 - 01/20/09 at 13:20:02
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Zatara wrote on 01/20/09 at 05:39:34:
Hi Markovich,
I think Mikhail Marin has played it before...  I also rememeber reading that Nigel Davies was also interested in it.  But really isn't it just a "poor mans" KID???
cheers,
Zatara


That's the rap, but I think it's not all that comparable.  I've played over about 50 games so far, mostly of Erik Lobron and Jorg Hickl.  Black has no kingside plans but also no weaknesses there.  He just sort of hangs back and stays flexible.  It appears to be += in essentially all lines, but in my limited investigations I haven't seen that White can force Black to accept a lifeless position.  It looks to me like a complex field where the better player will likely win.  Maybe when I learn more I'll find that's not the case.

Andrew Martin played some games with it and created a "Foxy chess" CD, but the production qualities of those old Foxy CDs are so low that I doubt I'll send away for it.
  

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