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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Old Indian? (Read 43261 times)
Bibs
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #47 - 01/19/14 at 08:16:51
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GabrielGale wrote on 01/19/14 at 03:29:15:
@ Bibs/BPaulsen, I assume both of you mean the following book:
Alexander Cherniav, The New Old Indian?
I have been curious about the book and there has not been much discussion about the lines nor the book.
Thanks for your assessment.


Yes, that's right.
You can build a robust repertoire with such lines as contained therein, with the added advantage that white players will have to think a little.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #46 - 01/19/14 at 03:29:15
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@ Bibs/BPaulsen, I assume both of you mean the following book:
Alexander Cherniav, The New Old Indian?
I have been curious about the book and there has not been much discussion about the lines nor the book.
Thanks for your assessment.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #45 - 01/19/14 at 02:44:34
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BPaulsen wrote on 01/18/14 at 22:49:20:
It's one of the books that I got to look at as part of working on "Play 1.Nf3!". It's a solid work. The quality of the analysis is mostly very good (no book is perfect that I have seen, so this is about the highest mark I can give something), and I had to apply some elbow grease to try to one up it. Given the Old Indian's reputation as "+=, next please", it's high praise, I think.


Thanks for your opinion Bryan. I agree with your verdict - high praise.
I also thought it was very strongly written. A great deal of very interesting material. Clearly presented, professionally written, and well-analysed.
I have been playing KID and early ...d6 stuff for A Very Long Time, yet much here was still very helpful for me, and I learnt a lot.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #44 - 01/18/14 at 22:49:20
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It's one of the books that I got to look at as part of working on "Play 1.Nf3!". It's a solid work. The quality of the analysis is mostly very good (no book is perfect that I have seen, so this is about the highest mark I can give something), and I had to apply some elbow grease to try to one up it. Given the Old Indian's reputation as "+=, next please", it's high praise, I think.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #43 - 01/17/14 at 22:55:44
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Bump
Further thoughts on the Old Indian?
Specifically on 'The New Old Indian' text?
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #42 - 10/12/13 at 10:46:04
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tony37 wrote on 10/12/13 at 10:22:56:
Igor wrote on 10/12/13 at 08:38:50:
The translation is correct, but the Russians call "old indian" ("staroindiska sazcita" http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Староиндийская_защита ) the King's Indian  Tongue
The link doesn't work right now, but I can confirm that Pozharsky's book, "Chess Manual, vol. 2 - Positional Ideas In The Old Indian" covers only KID setups (g6, Bg7 etc)

and how do they call the Old Indian? when I look at the translation at Wikipedia it just says 'Indian Defence' (Индийская защита)

Right!  Wink
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #41 - 10/12/13 at 10:22:56
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Igor wrote on 10/12/13 at 08:38:50:
The translation is correct, but the Russians call "old indian" ("staroindiska sazcita" http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Староиндийская_защита ) the King's Indian  Tongue
The link doesn't work right now, but I can confirm that Pozharsky's book, "Chess Manual, vol. 2 - Positional Ideas In The Old Indian" covers only KID setups (g6, Bg7 etc)

and how do they call the Old Indian? when I look at the translation at Wikipedia it just says 'Indian Defence' (Индийская защита)
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #40 - 10/12/13 at 08:38:50
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Dragan Glas wrote on 02/09/09 at 16:25:50:
Greetings,

@Markovich

If your Russian is up to it, there's Positional Ideas In The Old Indian by Vladimir Pozharsky. Wink

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas


The translation is correct, but the Russians call "old indian" ("staroindiska sazcita" http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Староиндийская_защита ) the King's Indian  Tongue
The link doesn't work right now, but I can confirm that Pozharsky's book, "Chess Manual, vol. 2 - Positional Ideas In The Old Indian" covers only KID setups (g6, Bg7 etc)
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #39 - 07/10/11 at 10:11:43
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Nelson wrote on 06/22/11 at 13:11:58:
One of my first observations is that the following is not covered (unless I've missed it):-

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6 3 Nc3 e5 4 Nf3 e4 5 Nd2 Qe7 6 g3 (even though Alex had played a game in this variation last year and struggled to obtain equality)

6 g3 just looks like a sensible move to me.

Regards,

Nelson Cool

Actually, he covers 6 g3 in Chapter 1 in four different sequences:
5 Ng5 Qe7
5 Ng5 Bf5
5 Nd2 Qe7
5 Nd2 Bf5
Smiley

What I'm a little wary of is that albeit Black finds good play in almost all variations, the road seems to change from game to game. For example in chapter one he gives a nice overview of white's possible strategies after 4 .. e4. Perhaps it would have been nice to get such an overview of black's strategies too? I guess if I play through all the games very carefully, I will understand better.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #38 - 06/25/11 at 20:02:42
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Dink Heckler wrote on 01/21/09 at 15:43:07:
I used to play the OI a fair bit.

Markovich mentions the Bg5, e3, Qc2 idea, which I think gives quite easy play for White, and thus I would always meet Bg5 with ed followed by g6, to avoid those lines.

Re the ...c5 question, its conceivable that White plays a decidedly suboptimal anti-Czech setup and then Black could try to finesse it by segueing into a Czech Benoni a tempo down. After all, tempi tend to get thrown around with gay abandon in the CB anyway. But in practice, this is rarely appropriate.

Re the OI in general, my opinion is you need a certain sensibility to play it well; knowing when to make an audacious space grab on the Q-side w. ...b5 (after all, W has more space and is usually reasonably set up to counter same), and when to just cockroach and await events.

I suppose my OI epiphany came when I opted for the cockroach approach versus a (very) strong GM. He opted for a g3 setup, I made all the obvious moves and had a perfectly serviceable position. But then I set to thinking, what next...and the 'obvious' answer was to play Be7-f8, g6, Bg7, which is a fairly common manouvre. Then I thought, I'll be ****-ed if I'm going to play the KID several tempi down vs a super-GM, set about looking for 'alternatives', came up with some rubbish, and went down in flames. Which would have happened anyway, no doubt, but the whole thing just felt so...contrived, I guess is the word I'm looking for. I never played it again.


For what it's worth, Kraii in one of his lectures, didn't seem overly impressed with the g3 setup versus the Old Indian.  He said Black had good play with the ...c6, ...a6, ...b5 plan aiming to attack c4 or push to b4 and allowing the Bishop to go to b7.  Perhaps he was too quick to dismiss the White setup though as it still looks pretty solid despite those ideas.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #37 - 06/22/11 at 13:11:58
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One of my first observations is that the following is not covered (unless I've missed it):-

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6 3 Nc3 e5 4 Nf3 e4 5 Nd2 Qe7 6 g3 (even though Alex had played a game in this variation last year and struggled to obtain equality)

6 g3 just looks like a sensible move to me.

Regards,

Nelson Cool
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #36 - 06/21/11 at 15:35:01
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yeah, I'll have to look at that. I've tried it before, but didn't really have a clue what I was doing, or where my counterplay might possibly be Huh
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #35 - 06/21/11 at 11:11:49
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Dear All,

Thought this thread might be worth rejuvenating in light of the new book "The New Old Indian".

There are some refreshing and interesting ideas and the author seems to have played it quite a lot himself.

Regards,

Nelson  Smiley
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #34 - 06/21/10 at 21:45:37
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motörhead wrote on 06/21/10 at 21:28:52:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nf3 Nbd7 4.Nc3 e5 5.e4 Le7 6.Le2 0-0 7.0-0 c6 8.Le3 a6 9.d5


That is one of the lines considered += by ECO and NCO.  Incidentally it reminds me of this:  http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1264436810 .  Of course "+= with best play" is the standard view of the Old Indian.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #33 - 06/21/10 at 21:28:52
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Ludde wrote on 06/21/10 at 08:05:15:
Didn't Larsen play the OID quite a lot in the 80s? He even drew with it against Kasparov I believe, even though he was lost...maybe 1983


Yes indeed. But as far as I know Larsen employed the OID against Kasparov in 1981 Bugoino. And he lost after a nice rook sac (but he shouldn't have to).
In Kaissiber 18/2002 Larsen gave two of his games (Forintos - L., England, BBC 1978, and Hort - L. Tilburg 1979). He won both but he puts them under the headline "Leiden mit Altindisch" transl. "Suffering with OID". "In both cases one could say 'It is possible that Black can hold his own'", he wrote. Not exactly a good marketing quotation, or?

Overall when checking OID games played by experts like Hickl or Espig, I got the feeling that Black is all to often worse in a cramped position. The lack of g7-g6 and the fianchetto of Black's dark squared bishop highlights the problems. He has no active play and the square f5 tends to be weak, a good place for a knight.

As I feel it, White is up in the very simple classical variation.
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nf3 Nbd7 4.Nc3 e5 5.e4 Le7 6.Le2 0-0 7.0-0 c6 8.Le3 a6 9.d5
And as far as I know, there is no way to equal play for Black he gets under severe pressure on the queen's side.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #32 - 06/21/10 at 08:05:15
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Didn't Larsen play the OID quite a lot in the 80s? He even drew with it against Kasparov I believe, even though he was lost...maybe 1983
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #31 - 06/18/10 at 20:04:37
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I agree, and I would add that the reason that is true is that these openings are rarely played with a plan in mind; they're played by low-rated players in order to avoid the theory they haven't studied and the sharp positions they get blown away in, and by high rated players who want to "play chess" against lower rated opposition without permitting their opponent to get to any sort of position where they might have special understanding.

For instance:

London System played against the KID by a master facing an expert.

A class player taking on an expert plays the OID with the idea of avoiding anything critical and making a draw.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #30 - 06/10/10 at 17:54:54
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LeeRoth wrote on 06/10/10 at 17:20:10:
Nigel Davies shows an old Eric Lobron win in the lastest issue of ChessBase Magazine. 

I wonder if they'll be a DVD?  The Old Inidan strikes me as an opening that would be good for a DVD as you play it on concepts, not theory. 


I was just thinking about how there's a clear advantage for guys like Davies and Martin to present openings like the Czech Benoni and the Old Indian as Black, and things like the Tromp and London as White. They are fairly solid and practical, and it's an opening that when presenting illustrative games, you can show games where mistakes are harder to pinpoint, and wins from either side look quite easy. Likewise, it's difficult to pinpoint the best plan for White, and thus the presenter can get away with not covering much at all in this regard. Sad really.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #29 - 06/10/10 at 17:20:10
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Nigel Davies shows an old Eric Lobron win in the lastest issue of ChessBase Magazine. 

I wonder if there will be a DVD?  The Old Inidan strikes me as an opening that would be good for a DVD as you play it on concepts, not theory. 
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #28 - 02/09/09 at 19:09:34
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Dragan Glas wrote on 02/09/09 at 16:25:50:
Greetings,

@Markovich

If your Russian is up to it, there's Positional Ideas In The Old Indian by Vladimir Pozharsky. Wink

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas


Unfortunately, though I can eke out the approximate pronunciation of Russian words, the language is opaque to me.  I could probably puzzle through "White has the advantage," but not the sort of thing I would expect to find in this work.  Too bad, it sounds like a fascinating book.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #27 - 02/09/09 at 16:25:50
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Greetings,

@Markovich

If your Russian is up to it, there's Positional Ideas In The Old Indian by Vladimir Pozharsky. Wink

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #26 - 01/23/09 at 21:38:05
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Yep.  I seem to recall it "analyzing"/advocating the Stonewall (for White), but then I also seem to recall a letter to Larry Evans' column which went like this ...

Q:  In his book "Baroque Chess Openings," Richard Wincor claims that 1. d3 [uh, P-Q3] is "the perfect opening move."  Can he possibly be serious?
A:  2000 years ago someone observed, "Times are bad.  Children no longer listen to their parents and everyone is writing a book."
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #25 - 01/23/09 at 21:21:59
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I think there also may have been Old Indian coverage in Baroque Chess Openings.  Remember that one?





  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #24 - 01/23/09 at 20:09:14
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I remember that Soltis book; I also remember one by L. M. Pickett (whose opening books weren't of the highest quality) which advocated a particular version/move order with 1...Nf6, 2...d6, 3...c6, 4...Qc7 and 5...Nbd7, or some such.  I believe that exhausts my knowledge of Old Indian books ...
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #23 - 01/23/09 at 19:54:22
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I used to play the Old Indian once in a while back in the 80s.  My source was a small Chess Digest book by Soltis, which I think was called the Not So Old Indian or something like that.  I haven't kept up with the theory, but some general observations based on my own, admittedly dated, experience:

Most of the main lines are probably +/= in that White has more space, the chance to call the tune for a while, and a generally easier game.  But Black is very solid, and I don't see where he should lose.  My typical game would involve a lot of maneuvering, then White would make his move (usually, but not always the c5 break), there'd be a flurry of tactics and then an ending.  Endings tended to be equal or better for Black.   

In terms of White systems, I always thought the main lines were the most testing -- by that I mean the A55 lines where White plays c4,d4,e4,Nc3,Nf3 and Be2.  In particular, I found the set up with Qc2 and Rd1 annoying, since it makes things uncomfortable for the Black Queen.  One thing you'll learn if you play the Old Indian is that the Black Queen is never really happy on c7 due to tactics down the c-file.       

  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #22 - 01/23/09 at 15:41:07
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Markovich wrote on 01/23/09 at 13:40:49:
kylemeister wrote on 01/21/09 at 20:26:40:
Holbox wrote on 01/21/09 at 18:02:18:
When some one plays f3 against the OI usually i try to exchange the
Dark Squared Bishops with the typical manoubre ...Ne8 and ...Bg5. Then black drives on the dark squares. This exchange is easier to get and more appropriate than in the KID variation because there are not weak DS's arround black's king.

I can't underdstand that a white setup without e4 can be strong against the OI. Against this kind of tame play black should try to expand in the center with d5, I think.



I think that White would often aim to meet that ...Ne8 and ...Bg5 with f4, in at least some cases prepared by g3.



Black also has an f-pawn, of course, and I would think he'd be pretty interested in pushing it (after ...Ne8) with White committed to d5 and g3.  f4 unprepared by g3 I would suppose Black would meet with ...exf4.  

I'm just winging this, looking at it in my head.  Honestly I was quite unaware that anyone thought that f3 was anything White should play against the OI.  


I was thinking of Black playing for ...Bg5 as soon as possible, as well as cases with ...c6 and d5 in.  One GM encounter I notice with the second scenario is Agrest-Jansa 1999.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #21 - 01/23/09 at 13:40:49
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kylemeister wrote on 01/21/09 at 20:26:40:
Holbox wrote on 01/21/09 at 18:02:18:
When some one plays f3 against the OI usually i try to exchange the
Dark Squared Bishops with the typical manoubre ...Ne8 and ...Bg5. Then black drives on the dark squares. This exchange is easier to get and more appropriate than in the KID variation because there are not weak DS's arround black's king.

I can't underdstand that a white setup without e4 can be strong against the OI. Against this kind of tame play black should try to expand in the center with d5, I think.



I think that White would often aim to meet that ...Ne8 and ...Bg5 with f4, in at least some cases prepared by g3.



Black also has an f-pawn, of course, and I would think he'd be pretty interested in pushing it (after ...Ne8) with White committed to d5 and g3.  f4 unprepared by g3 I would suppose Black would meet with ...exf4.  

I'm just winging this, looking at it in my head.  Honestly I was quite unaware that anyone thought that f3 was anything White should play against the OI.  
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #20 - 01/22/09 at 10:04:33
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...Nbd7 is main line vs the Fianchetto but ...Nc6 is more popular vs the Classical. So one might argue that the Classical vs the Old-Indian takes benefit from Black's early ...Nbd7.
If White plays the Fianchetto vs the OID it's logical to do the same vs the KID. And Markovich prefers the Four Pawns.
If White plays the Classical vs the OID (s)he avoids the hot ...Nc6 stuff might Black transpose to the KID.

kylemeister wrote on 01/22/09 at 04:08:48:
In the line of your first paragraph, your move order seems unusual, but in any case the way all sources I know of "want" White to play is 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. e4 e5 5. Nge2 Be7 6. f3 c6 7. Be3 0-0 8. d5.  If 8...a5 there, ECO and Taimanov (Königsindisch bis Altindisch) like 9. g4 as in Marjanovic-Maranguinic, Bled/Portoroz 1979.


Thanks, I had missed this game. Once again is clear how valuable Taimanov's golden oldies are. I had the chance to buy this one 25 years ago, but foolishly thought I would never need it.
Black might not play 11...Ne8 as Maranguinic did, but 11...a4. This will transpose to Zhu Chen-Dumitrache, Cappelle 1998, where 18...a3 looks very interesting.
« Last Edit: 01/23/09 at 00:41:14 by MNb »  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #19 - 01/22/09 at 04:08:48
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MNb wrote on 01/22/09 at 02:50:49:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Ndb7 4.e4 e5 5.f3 c6 6.Be3 Be7 the question is: should White play d4-d5 or not?
If yes then I always have thought Yanofsky-Najdorf, Olympiade Amsterdam 1954 exemplary: 7.d5 0-0 8.Bd3 Nc5 9.Nge2 cxd5 10.cxd5 Nfd7 11.0-0 Bg5. If 8.Qd2 then ...a5. It is important to play ...c6 and secure c5 for the knight. Only then Black will decide to initiate counterplay either on the Queen's or on the King's Wing.
If no then going for ...d5 looks good: 7.Qd2 0-0 8.Nge2 d5! Other moves than 8.Nge2 have not been tested sufficiently, but += seems not justified yet.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Nf3 (4.Bg5 h6 5.Bh4 g5 Bronstein-Petrosjan, Candidates Zürich 1953) e5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 h6 (to deprive White from the sac h2-h4 should Black have to play ...h6 later) 7.Bh4 c6 8.Qc2 and now Kaidanov-Bosboom, Groningen Open 1990, seems to be the key game. Despite his loss Bosboom repeated this line twice, with success. So again += might be too early.

I understand Markovich. If White plays the Sämisch or Four Pawns against the KID (s)he might not want to chose the Classical or the Fianchetto vs. the OID. Still, especially in corr. chess, the first option might be best: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.e4 e5 5.Nf3 Be7 6.Be2 0-0 7.0-0 c6 8.Re1 and there is no ...Nc6 with mating attacks to follow.


In the line of your first paragraph, your move order seems unusual, but in any case the way all sources I know of "want" White to play is 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. e4 e5 5. Nge2 Be7 6. f3 c6 7. Be3 0-0 8. d5.  If 8...a5 there, ECO and Taimanov (Königsindisch bis Altindisch) like 9. g4 as in Marjanovic-Maranguinic, Bled/Portoroz 1979. 

Leaving aside that and Kaidanov-Bosboom (considered += by NCO, not mentioned by the others), I'm not sure why you suggest a preference for the Classical over the Fianchetto, since it seems to me that both of those have "always and everywhere" been considered slightly better for White.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #18 - 01/22/09 at 02:50:49
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After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Ndb7 4.e4 e5 5.f3 c6 6.Be3 Be7 the question is: should White play d4-d5 or not?
If yes then I always have thought Yanofsky-Najdorf, Olympiade Amsterdam 1954 exemplary: 7.d5 0-0 8.Bd3 Nc5 9.Nge2 cxd5 10.cxd5 Nfd7 11.0-0 Bg5. If 8.Qd2 then ...a5. It is important to play ...c6 and secure c5 for the knight. Only then Black will decide to initiate counterplay either on the Queen's or on the King's Wing.
If no then going for ...d5 looks good: 7.Qd2 0-0 8.Nge2 d5! Other moves than 8.Nge2 have not been tested sufficiently, but += seems not justified yet.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Nf3 (4.Bg5 h6 5.Bh4 g5 Bronstein-Petrosjan, Candidates Zürich 1953) e5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 h6 (to deprive White from the sac h2-h4 should Black have to play ...h6 later) 7.Bh4 c6 8.Qc2 and now Kaidanov-Bosboom, Groningen Open 1990, seems to be the key game. Despite his loss Bosboom repeated this line twice, with success. So again += might be too early.

I understand Markovich. If White plays the Sämisch or Four Pawns against the KID (s)he might not want to chose the Classical or the Fianchetto vs. the OID. Still, especially in corr. chess, the first option might be best: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.e4 e5 5.Nf3 Be7 6.Be2 0-0 7.0-0 c6 8.Re1 and there is no ...Nc6 with mating attacks to follow.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #17 - 01/21/09 at 20:26:40
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Holbox wrote on 01/21/09 at 18:02:18:
When some one plays f3 against the OI usually i try to exchange the
Dark Squared Bishops with the typical manoubre ...Ne8 and ...Bg5. Then black drives on the dark squares. This exchange is easier to get and more appropriate than in the KID variation because there are not weak DS's arround black's king.

I can't underdstand that a white setup without e4 can be strong against the OI. Against this kind of tame play black should try to expand in the center with d5, I think.



I think that White would often aim to meet that ...Ne8 and ...Bg5 with f4, in at least some cases prepared by g3.

When White plays f3 plus an early d5, it seems that Black often plays ...Be7, ...Nh5 and ...Bg5.  Here though on 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. e4 e5 5. Nge2 Be7 6. f3 Nh5 White at least has 7. Nd5.  I notice that grandmaster Iuldachev has played 6...c6 7. Be3 Nh5 8. Qd2 h6, though.

Regarding setups without e4, it's my impression that the Bg5/e3/Qc2 stuff has been considered one of White's better tries for decades.  It is presumably difficult for Black to get in a favorable ...d5.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #16 - 01/21/09 at 18:02:18
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When some one plays f3 against the OI usually i try to exchange the
Dark Squared Bishops with the typical manoubre ...Ne8 and ...Bg5. Then black drives on the dark squares. This exchange is easier to get and more appropriate than in the KID variation because there are not weak DS's arround black's king.

I can't underdstand that a white setup without e4 can be strong against the OI. Against this kind of tame play black should try to expand in the center with d5, I think.





  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #15 - 01/21/09 at 17:44:46
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Markovich wrote on 01/21/09 at 16:49:19:
kylemeister wrote on 01/21/09 at 16:35:17:
Regarding the Saemisch question, White does sometimes play a "Saemischey" setup against the Old Indian, but it seems that some versions of that lead to positions which are more comfortable for Black than usual.


What, an early f3 against the OI?  I wasn't aware that that anyone considered that a decent setup.



It seems that a version where White refrains from an early d5 (1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. e4 e5 5. Nge2 followed by Saemischey moves; this could also be reached via 3...e5 but perhaps that's less likely) is generally considered slightly better for White.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #14 - 01/21/09 at 16:49:19
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kylemeister wrote on 01/21/09 at 16:35:17:
Regarding the Saemisch question, White does sometimes play a "Saemischey" setup against the Old Indian, but it seems that some versions of that lead to positions which are more comfortable for Black than usual.


What, an early f3 against the OI?  I wasn't aware that that anyone considered that a decent setup.

One move order wrinkle I have noticed in some OI games, which seems to be worth following, is 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c6.  

I presume that Black has in mind that White might meet 2...d6 with 3.Nc3.  Then Black would have to choose between a Pirc, a Philidor, or a tempo-down weird d-pawn with 3...d5.  2...c6 is entirely useful in case of 3.Nc3 d5, and I assume that Black's intention in case of 3.Bg5 is to play 3...Ne4.  The game returns to an OI after 3.c4 d6, where I doubt that the early ...c6 hurts very much.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #13 - 01/21/09 at 16:35:17
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Regarding the Saemisch question, White does sometimes play a "Saemischey" setup against the Old Indian, but it seems that some versions of that lead to positions which are more comfortable for Black than usual.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #12 - 01/21/09 at 15:43:07
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I used to play the OI a fair bit.

Markovich mentions the Bg5, e3, Qc2 idea, which I think gives quite easy play for White, and thus I would always meet Bg5 with ed followed by g6, to avoid those lines.

Re the ...c5 question, its conceivable that White plays a decidedly suboptimal anti-Czech setup and then Black could try to finesse it by segueing into a Czech Benoni a tempo down. After all, tempi tend to get thrown around with gay abandon in the CB anyway. But in practice, this is rarely appropriate.

Re the OI in general, my opinion is you need a certain sensibility to play it well; knowing when to make an audacious space grab on the Q-side w. ...b5 (after all, W has more space and is usually reasonably set up to counter same), and when to just cockroach and await events.

I suppose my OI epiphany came when I opted for the cockroach approach versus a (very) strong GM. He opted for a g3 setup, I made all the obvious moves and had a perfectly serviceable position. But then I set to thinking, what next...and the 'obvious' answer was to play Be7-f8, g6, Bg7, which is a fairly common manouvre. Then I thought, I'll be ****-ed if I'm going to play the KID several tempi down vs a super-GM, set about looking for 'alternatives', came up with some rubbish, and went down in flames. Which would have happened anyway, no doubt, but the whole thing just felt so...contrived, I guess is the word I'm looking for. I never played it again.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #11 - 01/21/09 at 15:12:13
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 and if White wants to prevent 3. ...e5 then 3.Nf3 and no Samisch.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #10 - 01/21/09 at 14:31:31
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Quote:
In my understanding of such positions, Black generally prefers to meet d5, at least when played fairly early, by something other than ...c5 (which would perhaps typically give him a tempo-down Czech Benoni, which doesn't seem too attractive).  He would often meet d5 with ...Nc5 when that is feasible, for example. 


Thank you.

Another question: why is told that the old indian move order (1...Nf6, 2...d6) avoids the Samish KID? There is any concrete line which refutes white's plan?


  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #9 - 01/20/09 at 22:28:01
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Holbox wrote on 01/20/09 at 22:03:57:
Quote:
Indeed I would think that ...c5 is quite often not the best answer to d5, at least according to the traditional thinking about such things.


Would you like to explain this a bit with "plain" words? I will thank you very much.



In my understanding of such positions, Black generally prefers to meet d5, at least when played fairly early, by something other than ...c5 (which would perhaps typically give him a tempo-down Czech Benoni, which doesn't seem too attractive).  He would often meet d5 with ...Nc5 when that is feasible, for example.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #8 - 01/20/09 at 22:03:57
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Quote:
Indeed I would think that ...c5 is quite often not the best answer to d5, at least according to the traditional thinking about such things.


Would you like to explain this a bit with "plain" words? I will thank you very much.

  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #7 - 01/20/09 at 17:52:38
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Indeed I would think that ...c5 is quite often not the best answer to d5, at least according to the traditional thinking about such things.
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #6 - 01/20/09 at 17:40:34
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Holbox wrote on 01/20/09 at 16:48:18:
I trully believe in the Old Indian setup (Idem about Philidor Hanham Setup), but in the post mortem of game I lost against a +2350 Fide Master, he told me:

"I played the Old Indian System several times against GM oposition and I have lost every time".

We were talking about white playing d5 and then black reacting with c5 with similar situation in the center than in the Czech Benoni (as recomended in Martin's Foxy Video).

The conclusion was : white's space advantage is enough to win.

I don't really want to believe it but..., I was under too much presure and finally blundered.





Right. I don't really think it's system to knock off very strong players with. Personally I think that playing a highly theoretical line that you know well or at least a very unbalanced line is the best way to try to bring down the mighty. 

Also I'm not sure, but I don't think that ...c5 is always the best reaction to d5.  Most of Black's counterplay goes away and White is at leisure to play b4 and invade the queenside.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #5 - 01/20/09 at 16:48:18
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I trully believe in the Old Indian setup (Idem about Philidor Hanham Setup), but in the post mortem of game I lost against a +2350 Fide Master, he told me:

"I played the Old Indian System several times against GM oposition and I have lost every time".

We were talking about white playing d5 and then black reacting with c5 with similar situation in the center than in the Czech Benoni (as recomended in Martin's Foxy Video).

The conclusion was : white's space advantage is enough to win.

I don't really want to believe it but..., I was under too much presure and finally blundered.



  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #4 - 01/20/09 at 15:57:44
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Greetings,

From what I've seen, it appears to be as sound as Philidor's Defence, to which it bears a resemblance - in fact, it's quite possible that there may be transpositional possibilities if both players head that way,

365Chess has a section on it, including lots of games.

The statistics look interesting - after 3.Nc3, 3..., Nbd7 appears to do better than 3..., e5.

From my interest in him, I know of Corzo-Capablanca, Havana 1913, amongst others.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #3 - 01/20/09 at 13:20:02
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Zatara wrote on 01/20/09 at 05:39:34:
Hi Markovich,
I think Mikhail Marin has played it before...  I also rememeber reading that Nigel Davies was also interested in it.  But really isn't it just a "poor mans" KID???
cheers,
Zatara


That's the rap, but I think it's not all that comparable.  I've played over about 50 games so far, mostly of Erik Lobron and Jorg Hickl.  Black has no kingside plans but also no weaknesses there.  He just sort of hangs back and stays flexible.  It appears to be += in essentially all lines, but in my limited investigations I haven't seen that White can force Black to accept a lifeless position.  It looks to me like a complex field where the better player will likely win.  Maybe when I learn more I'll find that's not the case.

Andrew Martin played some games with it and created a "Foxy chess" CD, but the production qualities of those old Foxy CDs are so low that I doubt I'll send away for it.
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #2 - 01/20/09 at 13:03:38
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I seem to recall that Yusupov annotated an interesting game in Dvoretsky's Positional Play.  I think he was White and Black lost, but the game and its general plan prompted me to give it a try otb (many years ago)...
  

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Re: Old Indian?
Reply #1 - 01/20/09 at 05:39:34
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Hi Markovich,
I think Mikhail Marin has played it before...  I also rememeber reading that Nigel Davies was also interested in it.  But really isn't it just a "poor mans" KID???
cheers,
Zatara
  
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Old Indian?
01/20/09 at 00:41:44
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This defense caught my attention recently, and I wonder if anyone has any experience with it.  I know the names of its few high-level practioners, but I'm just curious to know who here knows much about it, and also, how to play against it?

My own notes include the system with Bg5, e3 and Qc2, but it only ever came up in one of my games, which was a very early draw.
  

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