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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Avoiding the Petroff the Short style (Read 10560 times)
GabrielGale
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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #14 - 02/03/09 at 11:49:27
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Thanks all for your replies.

@Markovich, thanks as usual for your frank, accurate and brutal assessment.

@Mnb, thanks for the search tip. It is the logical way top proceed now you mention it and I had a think about it.

@ drkodos, thanks, you understodd me perfectly. As to sagacity, if I could claim that, I would not be a mere would-be theory hack!

@Lou_Cyber, thanks for your assessment. I came across the Glek in Marin's book.

@ trandism, thanks for the ref to Pinski and the tip on Nunn's book. Didn't know that. will check it out.
  

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GabrielGale
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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #13 - 02/03/09 at 11:41:54
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Markovich wrote on 02/02/09 at 18:45:34:
GabrielGale wrote on 01/27/09 at 07:54:26:

BTW, does anyone know how to search for games where it started out as Petroff but transposes into 4-Knights?


What would be the point of doing this, given that the position is the same regardless of whether it originated in 2...Nc6 or 2...Nf6?


I am interested from a statistical point of view and a strategic perspective. After all, my questyion was whether playing 3 Nc3 in reply to 2...Nf6 is that common.
  

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A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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trandism
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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #12 - 02/03/09 at 07:50:57
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If and only if the 4 knights (any flavour) is part of one's opening repertoire then why not, play it against the petroff as well..

I have played the Glek system 2-3 times with good results and I believe that white can get a slight edge and against an unprepared opponent at my level (2000ish) way more.. Jan Pinski's chapters on the Glek System in his 4 knights book are very good.. Nunn's book is way outdated and not to be recommended.. 

You can also search your database for games of Glek and Hector, who are the most famous of this system's advocates..

I have played 4.Be2 once and managed to equalize (Tongue), then blundered away an exchange and lost..

4.a3!? is more interesting than Be2 and might constitute a surprise weapon, specially prepared for that sunday morning short time controls league game against Joe who plays always for a win with black Tongue

Again Pinski gives some nice lines and of course it's somewhere in the SOS series (can't remember the exact volume)

  
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drkodos
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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #11 - 02/02/09 at 19:31:13
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Markovich wrote on 02/02/09 at 18:45:34:
GabrielGale wrote on 01/27/09 at 07:54:26:

BTW, does anyone know how to search for games where it started out as Petroff but transposes into 4-Knights?


What would be the point of doing this, given that the position is the same regardless of whether it originated in 2...Nc6 or 2...Nf6?



To determine the number of people likely to dodge the Petrov as opposed to those that would choose the Four Knights as their first choice v. any e5 defense?

I am not arguing the sagacity of doing such things, only the possibility that this could be the info desired.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #10 - 02/02/09 at 18:45:34
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GabrielGale wrote on 01/27/09 at 07:54:26:

BTW, does anyone know how to search for games where it started out as Petroff but transposes into 4-Knights?


What would be the point of doing this, given that the position is the same regardless of whether it originated in 2...Nc6 or 2...Nf6?
  

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Markovich
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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #9 - 02/02/09 at 18:39:51
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Lou_Cyber wrote on 01/27/09 at 10:14:28:
GabrielGale wrote on 01/26/09 at 16:34:17:

1) Is this a common way to avoid the Petroff or is it just Nigel Short?

The 4 Knights is a well known way to avoid the Petroff. It is not only used by Short, but most GM try to avoid the draw with the main lines of the Petroff.



Isn't it more correct to say that the Four Knights is a well known but not very popular opening system which, if one plays, obviates the need to play against the Petroff?

As stated this creates the impression that there are very many Whites out there who would just as soon play a Spanish, but will switch to a Four Knights if confronted by 2...Nf6; or that the Four Knights might somehow be on a theoretical par with the Spanish.  I don't believe that the former is the case, and the latter certainly isn't.  

People who dodged into a Four Knights as soon as 2...Nf6 were played would soon enough discover that they never got the chance to play the Spanish.  Maybe I am behind the times, but it's news to me if many GMs routinely play 3.Nc3 against the Petroff.
  

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ghenghisclown
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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #8 - 02/02/09 at 08:11:15
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I was under the impression that Bb4 is really good for Black, based on general consensus and results.

Actually Giri just played this move against Howell in Wijk an Zee with Black getting a draw. Apparently White playing f3 is the mainline, but nothing to write home about.
  

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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #7 - 01/27/09 at 20:26:38
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GabrielGale wrote on 01/27/09 at 07:54:26:

BTW, does anyone know how to search for games where it started out as Petroff but transposes into 4-Knights?


The most sure way is to do a search on the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 and then copy all the games into a new database. In that new database you do a search on the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6.
  

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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #6 - 01/27/09 at 15:43:25
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I would take issue with the idea that 3...Bb4 is "good for White"; it seems most often to be regarded as leading to equality with best play, though I suppose that theoretically 3...Nc6 may be rated a shade higher.
  
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Lou_Cyber
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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #5 - 01/27/09 at 10:14:28
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GabrielGale wrote on 01/26/09 at 16:34:17:

1) Is this a common way to avoid the Petroff or is it just Nigel Short?

The 4 Knights is a well known way to avoid the Petroff. It is not only used by Short, but most GM try to avoid the draw with the main lines of the Petroff.

GabrielGale wrote on 01/26/09 at 16:34:17:

2) Is this a good way to avoid the Petroff?

Yes, because black has no good way to reach a Petroff. An early 3...Bb4 is supposed to be good for white. Of course that does not mean that the 4 Knights is a good opening, when it comes to creating winning chances.

GabrielGale wrote on 01/26/09 at 16:34:17:

3) Can Black avoid the 4 Knights? ie, do not play 3...Nc6? Nunn covered only 3...Bb4 and mentioned only 3...d6 which he says transposes to a Philidor Defence ( 4 d4 Nbd7) and says 3...Bc5 is good for W after 4 Nxe5 Bd4 5 Nf3 Bxc3 6 dxc3 Nxe4  Bd3 Nc5 8 O-O.

As you mentioned the two main alternatives to the 4 knights the answer is obviously yes. 

GabrielGale wrote on 01/26/09 at 16:34:17:

4) What do you think of W's chances in the 4 knights?

That depends on the variation.
a) White can play an early a3 as advocated in an SOS volume. An opening advantage is most likely caused by surprise, with best play black should equalise comfortably.
b) White can play the Scotch 4 Knights with 4.d4. This can get very dry and drawish, it´s hard for either side to create winning chances.
c) White can play the infamous Belgrade Gambit, with 4.d4 exd 5.Nd5. There´s a huge thread on this hidden somewhere, but the bottom line seems to be that white get´s complicated double edged play with compensation if black accepts the gambit, whereas declining the gambit with 5...Be7 again looks like an easy equalizer.
d) 4.g3, the Glek variation is likewise an opening where white does not count on a straight opening advantage, but hopes to reach a favourable middlegame. It´s not as drawish as the Scotch 4 knights because there are not as many exchanges, but black should not get into opening trouble.
e) 4.Bb5, the Spanish 4 Knights has a lot of known drawing lines as well. On the other hand there are quite a few ways for white to create a rich middlegame structure. Forum member Urusov has a series of good articles on this, you find it here:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2006/anti-rubinstein.htm
The new Marin book is a good source for this too, there seems to be some life in these positions, but still black stands equal according to theory. The better player should win. 

  

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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #4 - 01/27/09 at 09:03:33
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If you are talking about a search in the infamous Chessbase you would have to search for position on the board after move 2 with whatever the ECO code for the 4 Knights is.





  
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GabrielGale
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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #3 - 01/27/09 at 07:54:26
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[quote author=Markovich link=1232987657/0#1 date=1232989560][This thread is misplaced; it belongs on 1.e4 e5.]

Yes, my mistake. If any moderator is kind to move this thread over to 1 e4 e5. Much appreciated.

@Antillian, yes but 1 d4 and tons of slav and semi-slav theories, Nimzos, QGDs etc?

BTW, does anyone know how to search for games where it started out as Petroff but transposes into 4-Knights?
  

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Antillian
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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #2 - 01/26/09 at 18:34:06
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That's not bad. But, I rather like instead the way Anand avoided the Petroff. Here is an example. 

[Event "WCC 2008"]
[Site "Bonn"]
[Date "2008/10/21"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Anand, V."]
[Black "Kramnik, V."]
[ECO ""]
[Result "1-0"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 d5 5.cxd5 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Qf5 7.Qb3 
Nc6 8.Bd2 O-O 9.h3 b6 10.g4 Qa5 11.Rc1 Bb7 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Bxc3 
Qd5 14.Qxd5 Nxd5 15.Bd2 Nf6 16.Rg1 Rac8 17.Bg2 Ne7 18.Bb4 c5 
19.dxc5 Rfd8 20.Ne5 Bxg2 21.Rxg2 bxc5 22.Rxc5 Ne4 23.Rxc8 Rxc8 
24.Nd3 Nd5 25.Bd2 Rc2 26.Bc1 f5 27.Kd1 Rc8 28.f3 Nd6 29.Ke1 a5 
30.e3 e5 31.gxf5 e4 32.fxe4 Nxe4 33.Bd2 a4 34.Nf2 Nd6 35.Rg4 
Nc4 36.e4 Nf6 37.Rg3 Nxb2 38.e5 Nd5 39.f6 Kf7 40.Ne4 Nc4 41.fxg7 
Kg8 42.Rd3 Ndb6 43.Bh6 Nxe5 44.Nf6+ Kf7 45.Rc3 Rxc3 46.g8=Q+ 
Kxf6 47.Bg7+ 1-0
  

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Markovich
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Re: Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
Reply #1 - 01/26/09 at 17:06:00
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[This thread is misplaced; it belongs on 1.e4 e5.]

Well if people are going to start playing 3.Nc3 against it, I'm going to start playing the Petroff.

But seriously no, this is not a good way to play against the Petroff, because the Four Knights is easier for Black to play against than the Spanish.  That includes 4.g3.  Also Black doesn't have to allow a Four Knights, but can play 3...Bb4 (I don't think it's considered as good as 3...Nc6, though).
« Last Edit: 01/26/09 at 19:50:16 by Markovich »  

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GabrielGale
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Avoiding the Petroff the Short style
01/26/09 at 16:34:17
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In the current 2009 CorusB, we see Nigel Short avoiding the Petroff by transposing to the Four Knights. The first was a spectacular win against L'ami who, it was generally agreed, played badly. In R8, Short again went for a transposition to 4 Knights but a different line (4 Be2). Commentators generally agree that Short was at a disadvantaged against Volokitin.

It would seem that Volokitin prepped for the 4 Knights since Nunn's 1993 book mentioned that W's 4 Be2 is rare and should be met with 4...d5 following the game Van der Wiel-Timman Wijk aan Zee 1985.
It would also seem that Volokitin played 11...exd3 which is not mentioned by Nunn (who only spoke of 11...Bd6, 11...Bc5, 11...Bd7 and 11...Bf5). I have not checked any databases ...

Question:
1) Is this a common way to avoid the Petroff or is it just Nigel Short? 2) Is this a good way to avoid the Petroff?
3) Can Black avoid the 4 Knights? ie, do not play 3...Nc6? Nunn covered only 3...Bb4 and mentioned only 3...d6 which he says transposes to a Philidor Defence ( 4 d4 Nbd7) and says 3...Bc5 is good for W after 4 Nxe5 Bd4 5 Nf3 Bxc3 6 dxc3 Nxe4  Bd3 Nc5 8 O-O.
4) What do you think of W's chances in the 4 knights?
5) What about W's chances in the 4 Knights Glek (4 g3)?

FYC, here are the game scores:
[Event "Corus Chess 2009"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee"]
[Date "2009/1/19"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Short"]
[Black "l'Ami"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteClock "1:18"]
[BlackClock "0:37"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. Bb5 Nd4  5. Nxe5 Nxb5 6. Nxb5 c6 7. Nc3 Qe7 8. Nf3 Nxe4 9. O-O Nxc3 10. dxc3 d5 11. Bg5 Qd6 12. Re1+ Be6 13. Nd4 c5 14. Nxe6 fxe6 15. Qh5+ g6 16. Qg4 Kf7 17. c4 d4 18. Qf3+ Kg8 19. Bf6 1-0

Short-Volokitin
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Be2 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.O-O Nxc3 7.bxc3 e4 8.Nd4 Nxd4 9.cxd4 Qxd4 10.c3 Qd5 11.d3 exd3 12.Re1 Be7 13.Bxd3 Be6 14.Be4 Qxd1 15.Rxd1 Rb8 16.Bf4 Bd6 17.Bxd6 cxd6 18.Rxd6 Ke7 19.Rd3 Rhc8 20.Re1 Kf8 21.Bxh7 Bxa2 22.Bf5 Re8 23.Ra1 Re2 24.Bg4 Rb2 25.Rd4 Rb1+ 26.Rxb1 Bxb1 27.Ra4 a6 28.f4 Bc2 29.Ra3 Be4 30.Kf2 Ke7 31.g3 Kd6 32.Ke3 Re8 33.Be2 Kc5 34.Kd2 Rd8+ 35.Ke3 Re8 36.Kd2 Rd8+ 37.Ke3 Bc6 38.h4 Bb5 39.Bxb5 Kxb5 40.Rb3+ Kc6 41.f5 a5 42.f6 gxf6 43.Rb1 a4 44.h5 Rh8 45.Rh1 a3 46.Ra1 Rxh5 47.Rxa3 Rc5 48.Kd2 Rg5 49.c4 Rf5 50.Ke2 Re5+ 51.Kd2 Kc5 52.Rb3 Re7 53.Kd3 Rd7+ 54.Kc3 Kd6 55.Rb5 Ke6 56.g4 Kd6 57.Kd4 Ke6+ ˝-˝
  

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A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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