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Normal Topic English 1...Nf6 with 2...d5 (Read 7516 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: English 1...Nf6 with 2...d5
Reply #9 - 02/25/09 at 12:03:51
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As Black against closed games I always has been a true defender of  "Grünfeld style" against almost anything. So after 1.c4 I play1.. Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 Nxc3 (I use to play 5..Nb6 too but that's not so easy if White play with d3 Be3 Qd2 h4, waiting before playing Nf3, etc) 6.bxc3 Bg7 and after 7.Rb1, I believe 7..c5 to be fully playable despite the results in practice. I have played it 2 times against a 2150 average and none took the challenge of taking the b7-pawn, but that's of course the best move here, so I didn't had problems because I could play with ..Nc6 then with a normal development. So after 7.Rb1 c5, 8.Rxb7 is of course critical, 8..Bxb7 9.Bxb7 Nd7 10.Bxa8 Qxa8 and know 11.f3 or 11.Nf3 has both positives and negatives points. But both have light squares weaknesses, a weak a2 pawn, a not so good bishop c1, so I believe Black has to play some precise moves but can reach dynamical equality and at the end a material and normal equality. That's could be an interesting preparation and I am waiting to play that on a corr game to test the idea.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: English 1...Nf6 with 2...d5
Reply #8 - 01/30/09 at 16:56:18
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Well, of course that reversed classical Dragon is considered a top-notch way for Black to play.

7...Nc6 struck me as unfamiliar, and indeed several books from the last decade or so don't mention it.  An old edition of ECO thought that White could get a clear advantage with 8. Qa4, but gave no analysis.  On 8. Nf3 it had a couple of citations leading to equality (the main one seemed to be 8...0-0 9. 0-0 b6 etc. as in Nikolaevsky-Savon, USSR ch 1966).
  
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Willempie
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Re: English 1...Nf6 with 2...d5
Reply #7 - 01/30/09 at 08:44:54
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I disagree a little with Mnb, but also with the thread starter. I think e5 is not a good plan and furthermore I feel it looks more like a Grunfeld than anything else.
Imo a better plan is to push for c5. For this the knight needs to leave c6 temporarily and b6 is also needed.
Having said that, I dont like this line at all for black. If you want to play like this, why not do it with 1..e5?
Eg 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Bg2 Nb6 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.O-O Be7 is a line I like to play. 
And yes, before anyone asks, I am the kind of obnoxious recalcitrant patzer, who feels the dragon is so bad I even can play against it a tempo down.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb
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Re: English 1...Nf6 with 2...d5
Reply #6 - 01/30/09 at 02:21:44
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analyzethat wrote on 01/29/09 at 12:01:10:
I don't think this resembles much of a sicilian, in my opinion there are tons of differences.


Compare 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.g3 Bg7 7.Bg2 0-0 8.0-0 Nc6 and here 9.Nxc6 is not White's most popular move. Still after 9...bxc6 the position is very similar to the diagrammed position - if Black plays ...e5 indeed. I don't want to imply that the whole English line is bad for Black, I am not qualified for such judgments. But if I were Black I would be very careful with playing ...e5.
  

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analyzethat
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Re: English 1...Nf6 with 2...d5
Reply #5 - 01/29/09 at 21:39:20
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Basically as you can see I am still trying to figure out how this opening works.

Can someone tell me the principal line for me to learn after Nf3.
  
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Klick
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Re: English 1...Nf6 with 2...d5
Reply #4 - 01/29/09 at 20:07:48
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In this line Black is trying to play a Grunfeld defence, but white has not cooperated by playing d4. D2-d4 will give black a chance to break in the center with a pawn-break, white figures it`s better to rely on his long term structural advantage with one more central pawn and the half-open b-file. That`s why he plays d3 instead of d4. He often plays a2-a4-a5 trying to create a weakness on the q-side.

Black tries to compensate white`s strucural advantage with active piece-play.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: English 1...Nf6 with 2...d5
Reply #3 - 01/29/09 at 18:13:50
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Indeed I wouldn't expect Black to rush into playing ...e5 while White is playing Dragonish moves.

In positions of this general sort, it is far from unknown for White to play for d3 plus c4, rather than d4.  One book that I think may shed some light on this is Michael Stean's "Simple Chess."
  
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analyzethat
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Re: English 1...Nf6 with 2...d5
Reply #2 - 01/29/09 at 12:01:10
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I don't think this resembles much of a sicilian, in my opinion there are tons of differences. Besides Emil Sutovski who is 2600 playes this so it can't be that bad.

I think the idea is similar to the Grunfeld in that black counterattacks the centre, which makes me think... perhaps an early e5 violates the spirit of this opening in that black would only want to play it when white has played d4 already, or something like that...
  
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MNb
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Re: English 1...Nf6 with 2...d5
Reply #1 - 01/29/09 at 10:20:26
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I don't need a computer to recognize a Sicilian Dragon structure after Black has played ...e5. And in the Sicilian Dragon White usually does not play Nd4xc6.
  

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English 1...Nf6 with 2...d5
01/29/09 at 02:54:04
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I have decided to play the following against the English 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.Rb1 Nc6

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Now here there are two moves it seems; 8.Nf3 and 8.Qc2

I'm looking for someone to explain to me how black should play against both of these moves.

Personally, only having looked at a few games so far, I think that black would do best in pusing his e-pawn rather than his c-pawn in order to contest the centre since moving the c-pawn weakens the diagonal in favour of the g2 bishop.

But with Qc2 I don't get the idea. Why do you want to play d3 instead of d4?

Thankful for any responses I can get.

EDIT: I was thinking about playing e5 specifically but I realise that it must be played before white gets the chance to play d4. The only way to do this is 8...e5 The question is whether this still works if 8.d4

If someone has a super strong computer then feel free to check it. This should most definetely be theory though and someone probably has a verdict for me straight away.
  
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