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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) NEW BDG BOOK (Read 219981 times)
motörhead
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #141 - 03/02/11 at 21:59:09
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MNb wrote on 03/02/11 at 20:50:38:
Well, heck, so the book is not perfect. What book is? It's a poor chessplayer who switches his/her brains off when browsing through a book.

In the line 13.Qh5 the verdict Black is better is a bit premature. After 16.Rae1 Qc6 17.Nxd8 Kxd8 White has quite a lead in development. Now I am not sure how to continue - White can go for the King with 18.Re8+ or safely round up pawn d4.
Another option is 13.Qd2. Black has several defensive options, but chosing a safe one is no cup of tea:
a) 13...f5 14.Rae1 (the simple idea) fxe4 15.Rxe4 Bb4 16.Qxb4 Qxg5 17.Rxe6 Kd8 18.Rf7 Kc8 19.Ree7.
b) 13...Bc5 14.Rae1 0-0 15.Nxh7.
c) 13...Be7 14.Rae1 0-0 15.Nf6+ Qxf6 16.Rxf6 Bxf6 17.Ne4 and Rybka thinks Black is slightly better (probably because of counting wood) but I don't.
d) 13...d3 might be best and now I am too lazy to find out if White is better after either 14.Rad1, 14.Rae1, 14.Nxf7 or 14.Qxd3.

Btw: have you slept 'til Hammersmith?


No man, that's simply Lemmy's law: you can't sleep til Hammersmith (which after all still is the best Motörhead-live-album yet - but this isn't the end or, eh Wink)

Thanks for your variations. You have been there before, or? May well be that you have detected that cave (hole in the variaton) first. I came across it some month ago while collecting and checking some material on the Euwe.

I havn't checked your variations yet in detail. Your are right, in the "main line" with 13.Qh5  16.Rae1 may well be more precise. I think White has to go for 18.Re8+ to tie Black down to the greatest extend. Nevertheless: The party isn't over yet, or?

On your 13.Qd2 I think your line c looks quite natural. I would hold it with Rybka. Nothing against you, as your are a creative guy. But how do you want to proceed? I don't know how White will get grips on the position, say after 17...Be5. At least the game doesn't take the normal BDG-attacking pattern, or?

So one thing should be clear: The cake isn't eaten yet. 6...c5may not be premature but deserves further consideration - or given in the chess punctuation: !? .
  

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MNb
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #140 - 03/02/11 at 20:50:38
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Well, heck, so the book is not perfect. What book is? It's a poor chessplayer who switches his/her brains off when browsing through a book.

In the line 13.Qh5 the verdict Black is better is a bit premature. After 16.Rae1 Qc6 17.Nxd8 Kxd8 White has quite a lead in development. Now I am not sure how to continue - White can go for the King with 18.Re8+ or safely round up pawn d4.
Another option is 13.Qd2. Black has several defensive options, but chosing a safe one is no cup of tea:
a) 13...f5 14.Rae1 (the simple idea) fxe4 15.Rxe4 Bb4 16.Qxb4 Qxg5 17.Rxe6 Kd8 18.Rf7 Kc8 19.Ree7.
b) 13...Bc5 14.Rae1 0-0 15.Nxh7.
c) 13...Be7 14.Rae1 0-0 15.Nf6+ Qxf6 16.Rxf6 Bxf6 17.Ne4 and Rybka thinks Black is slightly better (probably because of counting wood) but I don't.
d) 13...d3 might be best and now I am too lazy to find out if White is better after either 14.Rad1, 14.Rae1, 14.Nxf7 or 14.Qxd3.

Btw: have you slept 'til Hammersmith?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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motörhead
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #139 - 03/02/11 at 19:48:51
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Glenn Snow wrote on 03/01/11 at 06:57:52:
motörhead wrote on 02/28/11 at 22:13:11:
Well, I finally got my copy too. As I browsed through it now I quite naturally found some omissions.

E.g. The Euwe-Defence.
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 e6 6.Bg5 and now Christoph gives

6...h6 as "?" with 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 and 8.Bb5+! etc with the well known slaugther.
The punctuation is a bit wrong to my taste. 6...h6 deserves a "?!" perhaps. The real mistake is 7...Qxf6 "?" in my eyes. Clearly better is 7...gxf6 "!" with a struggle ahead. But this move isn't mentioned by Christoph at all.

the same is with
6...c5 which Christoph calls premature. I would sign it with "!?". Christoph gives 7.Bxf6! Qxf6 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.0-0 and "sees the Queen in the firing line again" and leaves you alone - at the wrong time, since at that very moment the party is just beginning. And you will not have a clue what to do.
Best for Black ist 9...cxd4 10.Se4 "?!" in my opinion 10...Qf4! and Black is heading for advantage. But you' ll find anything of this in the book. And all of this is not really new...

What came to my mind: I once saw Christoph in some of the BDG-threads here. The book was announced yet. Christoph gave some comments here and there - and then he suddenly left the scene. And the book announced with some 192 pages went back in the pipeline.
As I now saw, Christoph finally has used a lot of the quotations in the chess.pub-forums on his now 336 pages. You may call it the wisdom of the many.
And I do not want to critisize that. There are lots of new ideas by Christoph too.
But I have the impression that Christoph was impressed by the work done here by you, folks!


The book is 336 pages so at some point an author does have to leave something out.  In the second variation after 9...cxd4 10.Ne4 Qf4, my engine thinks 11.Bxd7+ Nxd7 12.Nfg5 is decent.



First, Glenn, don't get me wrong, it is quite understandable that there have to be ommisions. But the first line (6...h6) in itself by far isn't that bad as it seems when you read the book. But after 6...h6 7.Bxf6 Black shouldn't play 7...Qxf6, clearly "?".
So to mark 6...h6 with "?" to my mind is simply not correct and the book leads wrong (sorry).
Christoph should have mentioned "7...gxf6! is the only way for Black to fight on" or sth. else like that. I know, that the problem now is, that there are no clear variations at all, cause there is simply no contact between the two teams (or armies). But a hint how to proceed would have been useful as 6...h6 is a quite normal continuation for us normals.

To the variation you gave after 6...c5 (7.Bxf6! Qxf6 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.0-0 cxd4 10.Ne4 Qf4) 11.Bxd7+ Nxd7 12.Nfg5 : I got that continuation too, as it is known from the game Diemer - Terzi, Rastatt 1954. That game went on with 12...Qe3+ 13.Kh1 Be7 (13...Ne5 14.Nxe6!) 14.Rf3 and White soon won.
But in fact 12...Qe3+ is wrong. I found 12...Qe5! to be much better as now the white knights are badly tangled up - h7-h6 is threatening. If now 13.Qh5 then 13...0-0-0 14.Qxf7 h6 15.Nxe6 Qxe4 16.Nxd8 Kxd8 and Black is better.

So, sorry again, that variation isn't as easy as you might think if you browse through Christoph's book...
  

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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #138 - 03/01/11 at 06:57:52
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motörhead wrote on 02/28/11 at 22:13:11:
Well, I finally got my copy too. As I browsed through it now I quite naturally found some omissions.

E.g. The Euwe-Defence.
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 e6 6.Bg5 and now Christoph gives

6...h6 as "?" with 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 and 8.Bb5+! etc with the well known slaugther.
The punctuation is a bit wrong to my taste. 6...h6 deserves a "?!" perhaps. The real mistake is 7...Qxf6 "?" in my eyes. Clearly better is 7...gxf6 "!" with a struggle ahead. But this move isn't mentioned by Christoph at all.

the same is with
6...c5 which Christoph calls premature. I would sign it with "!?". Christoph gives 7.Bxf6! Qxf6 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.0-0 and "sees the Queen in the firing line again" and leaves you alone - at the wrong time, since at that very moment the party is just beginning. And you will not have a clue what to do.
Best for Black ist 9...cxd4 10.Se4 "?!" in my opinion 10...Qf4! and Black is heading for advantage. But you' ll find anything of this in the book. And all of this is not really new...

What came to my mind: I once saw Christoph in some of the BDG-threads here. The book was announced yet. Christoph gave some comments here and there - and then he suddenly left the scene. And the book announced with some 192 pages went back in the pipeline.
As I now saw, Christoph finally has used a lot of the quotations in the chess.pub-forums on his now 336 pages. You may call it the wisdom of the many.
And I do not want to critisize that. There are lots of new ideas by Christoph too.
But I have the impression that Christoph was impressed by the work done here by you, folks!


The book is 336 pages so at some point an author does have to leave something out.  In the second variation after 9...cxd4 10.Ne4 Qf4, my engine thinks 11.Bxd7+ Nxd7 12.Nfg5 is decent.
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #137 - 02/28/11 at 22:13:11
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Well, I finally got my copy too. As I browsed through it now I quite naturally found some omissions.

E.g. The Euwe-Defence.
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 e6 6.Bg5 and now Christoph gives

6...h6 as "?" with 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 and 8.Bb5+! etc with the well known slaugther.
The punctuation is a bit wrong to my taste. 6...h6 deserves a "?!" perhaps. The real mistake is 7...Qxf6 "?" in my eyes. Clearly better is 7...gxf6 "!" with a struggle ahead. But this move isn't mentioned by Christoph at all.

the same is with
6...c5 which Christoph calls premature. I would sign it with "!?". Christoph gives 7.Bxf6! Qxf6 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.0-0 and "sees the Queen in the firing line again" and leaves you alone - at the wrong time, since at that very moment the party is just beginning. And you will not have a clue what to do.
Best for Black ist 9...cxd4 10.Se4 "?!" in my opinion 10...Qf4! and Black is heading for advantage. But you' ll find anything of this in the book. And all of this is not really new...

What came to my mind: I once saw Christoph in some of the BDG-threads here. The book was announced yet. Christoph gave some comments here and there - and then he suddenly left the scene. And the book announced with some 192 pages went back in the pipeline.
As I now saw, Christoph finally has used a lot of the quotations in the chess.pub-forums on his now 336 pages. You may call it the wisdom of the many.
And I do not want to critisize that. There are lots of new ideas by Christoph too.
But I have the impression that Christoph was impressed by the work done here by you, folks!
  

A walk trough the ocean of most souls would scarcely get your feet wet.
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #136 - 02/28/11 at 21:13:54
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A child with some experience vs childs with no experience in tournament: "Ah, see, I just checkmated with 4.Qxf7. Of course it's not the best way to play as White, but my poor opponent just didn't know that! It works so it's good!
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #135 - 02/28/11 at 16:18:28
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OK, i haven't read all of the posts in this forum, but i was simply wondering where the analysis of Scheerer intersects with John Cox's 'Dealing with d4 variations!?'
Basically it seems as if 3...e5 seems a much more appropriate solution than allowing White any fun with the mainlines.
Also after 1.d4 Nf6, the BDG can be avoided like, 2.f3 d6!? 3.e4 d5!? (hoping to transpose to the french and the like), as well as Dembo's more adequate solution, 2...d5 3.e4 c5!?
There's another line which sort of avoids it after 1.d4 Nf6, which is 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4! (However i think the book recommends 2.e4 so it avoids that).
But basically i'm just more curious about 3...e5 cause i haven't seen much about this opening even on chess pub and wondering how Scheerer deals with it.
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #134 - 02/27/11 at 00:52:12
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Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Of course it is inferior, my dear chap. But you see, the other players don't know that, which is why 8...Nc6 is so infrequently seen. Moreover, I play 8 h3 in regular tournament games and win with it. So you see, 8 h3 is good for both regular and blitz chess.
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #133 - 02/27/11 at 00:46:53
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I thought we'd already established that 8...Nbd7 is inferior to 8...Nc6! and allows White good attacking chances (the book also mentions this).  All the above suggests is that it's good for blitz.
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #132 - 02/27/11 at 00:30:49
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Here is how the genius of Lev Zilbermintz crushes a Grandmaster in the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit:

Zilbermints - GM Enrique Rodriguez Guerrero
Internet Chess Club, 3 0 rated blitz
26 February 2011

Bogoljubow Defense
Studier-Zilbermints Attack

1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3 5 Nxf3 g6 6 Bc4 Bg7 7 00 00 8 h3 Nbd7 9 Qe1 Nb6 10 Bb3 Nbd5 11 Qh4 e6 12 Bg5 Nxc3 13 bxc3 h6 14 Bxh6 Bxh6 15 Qxh6 Nh7 16 Rae1 b6 17 h4! Qf6 18 Ne5 Qg7 19 Qe3 Bb7 20 Nd7 Rfd8 21 Rxf7! Kxf7 22 Qe6 mate!
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #131 - 02/25/11 at 22:12:52
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Dragonslayer wrote on 02/25/11 at 15:08:54:
Yes 6.Bf4 is interesting.
But what if Black does not play ...Bg7 and castles into the attack. Any modern/Pirc player will recognize this consideration against the 150 attack, while it is also seen in the Dragon that Black postpones 0-0.
6.Bf4 c6 was mentioned in Kaissiber IIRC, but only briefly. Scheerer's book simply continues 6...Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0.


I dunno. After 6 Bf4 Black hardly ever plays anything but 6...Bg7 (in the databases), and after 7 Qd2 hardly anything but 7...0-0. Okay, 6...c6 is sometimes seen, but then 7 Qd2 is nearly always met by 7...Bg7 and 8 0-0-0 by 8...0-0, so it comes to the same thing.

Also, it seems from the stats (a rough 50:50 percentage split) that Black has nothing objectively to worry about anyway. If 6 Bf4 was shown to be terribly strong then Black might have to think about other moves, but it only really gives White a playable position.
  

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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #130 - 02/25/11 at 20:12:18
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I'd also been wondering about that myself, especially as in the Scandinavian "Banker" line (the same position but with an extra white pawn on f2) Fischer criticised Robatsch for castling into the attack and instead suggested ...Bg7, Bh6 Bxh6 and then ...Bf5 intending to castle queenside. 

Ironically Scheerer does briefly cover alternatives to ...Bg7 and ...0-0 in the Studier Attack, correctly (in my opinion) concluding that Black should not hold back with castling, but this is mainly because of Bc4/Ne5/Bxf7+ ideas.

I believe that as per the "Banker" line Black should play ...Bg7 quickly, but can certainly consider preparing queenside castling and answering Bh6 with ...Bxh6.  A sample line after 6...c6 could run 7.Qd2 Bg7 8.0-0-0 Bf5 9.Bh6 Bxh6 10.Qxh6 Nbd7 11.Bc4 e6 12.h3 Qe7 13.g4 Be4 14.Rhf1 0-0-0 with a position that is difficult to assess, but probably about equal.  Black has serious weaknesses on the dark squares and faces pressure down the f-file, but retains an extra pawn and is in far less danger of being mated in the near future.  It reminds me a bit of the positions that arise from Lev Gutman's recommendation against those 4...c6/5...c6 lines.
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #129 - 02/25/11 at 15:08:54
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Yes 6.Bf4 is interesting.
But what if Black does not play ...Bg7 and castles into the attack. Any modern/Pirc player will recognize this consideration against the 150 attack, while it is also seen in the Dragon that Black postpones 0-0.
6.Bf4 c6 was mentioned in Kaissiber IIRC, but only briefly. Scheerer's book simply continues 6...Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0.
White can still play Bh6 of course, but the position is essentially a 150 attack, where White is missing pawns on e4 and f2, and Black the one on d6.
(Compare e.g. 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 with the position after 8.0-0-0 above)
For the pawn White has one tempo (Nf3) and the f-file, while Black has opened the d-file and needn't worry about e4-e5.
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #128 - 02/25/11 at 12:14:03
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Apologies- I keep missing moves out when giving variations!  I meant 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 and now 8...c5 when 9.d5 a6 10.d6! is quite strong, as pointed out in the book, while other continuations for Black allow White good attacking chances via Bh6 and a subsequent h2-h4-h5.

The ...Bg4xf3 idea represents one key difference between this variation and the Scandinavian "Banker" line 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.d4 g6 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2, when someone pointed out that ...Bg4 could be met by f3.  However I don't believe in it for Black in the BDG line either- if ...Bxf3 White gets an open g-file, and if ...Bh5 then White plays g4 and gains time with the kingside pawn roller with the g-pawn supporting the h-pawn (a similar objection exists with Black's development of the bishop to f5, so Black may be forced to develop it to d7 or e6).
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #127 - 02/24/11 at 15:57:47
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In my opinion, the Studier Attack has been over-analyzed over the years. This explains why you have so much coverage and analyses of its various sub-variations. The line with 8...Nc6 9 Qh4 Bg4! looks solid, inasmuch as it eliminates a key attacker, the Nf3, and pressures the d4-pawn. That is the reason IM Georgi Orlov and I introduced the move 8 h3.

With regard to 5...g6 6 Bf4 Bg7 7 Qd2 00 8 000, this line is indeed less analyzed than the Studier Attack. You will notice that the pesky trick ...Bg4 is no longer possible, as the d4-pawn is protected three times (Queen, Rook, Knight). Additionally, the capture ...Bxf3 might lead to an open g-file for White in some lines.
Perhaps this is the way to play against the Bogoljubow Defense in the 21st century?
  
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