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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) NEW BUDAPEST BOOK (Read 69347 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #80 - 08/13/14 at 13:36:23
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I think this is the thread that Stefan and others were looking for in the Budapest.

The search function on this site didn't help, so I went to Google and typed "chesspub: Budapest" to get here.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #79 - 02/18/13 at 21:27:26
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I notice that 10. Qd2 was given by Nunn back in NCO as leading to equality (citing Zayats-Gurieli, Kuala Lumpur wom IZ 1990).
  
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Markovich
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #78 - 02/18/13 at 21:16:51
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Ender wrote on 02/18/13 at 15:57:04:
In Gareev - Taylor black was ok in the opening. He could tru Bf5 instead of Bg4. He could also played  14..Ned7 and black is quite ok.


I'm not saying that White wins, certainly not out of the opening, just that his play should not be sniffed at. 

I don't think 14...Ned7 is "quite OK," but I agree ...Bf5 was better than ...Bg4 and probably equal.  I wonder why he didn't play it?   In reaction, e3-e4 doesn't look at all strong. 

White, however, could have played 10.Qd2, rather than 10.Qc2.
  

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Ender
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #77 - 02/18/13 at 15:57:04
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In Gareev - Taylor black was ok in the opening. He could tru Bf5 instead of Bg4. He could also played  14..Ned7 and black is quite ok.
  

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Markovich
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #76 - 02/18/13 at 14:45:15
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/16/13 at 18:36:17:
Just bumping this back up. Any new analysis/games of the e3 and Nh3?


For a comprehensive exposition of practice, see: https://1nf6.chesstheory.org/p.php?z=pt&a=139083&b=0&c=139083&d=0

An interesting recent game is Gareev - Taylor, Las Vegas 2012 , where Taylor goes down to defeat with his pet antidote.  Some other fairly recent games are Ernst - Swinkels, Amsterdam 2012, Pedersen - Kvamme, Malmoe 2012, and Nikolov - Bartsch, Bad Wiessee 2012.

Analysis I don't know about.  But it's not the sort of thing you analyze very deeply.  Gareev's plan of exchanging Black's c4 knight with Ba3,Bxc5 and then playing with his "extra" kingside pawn (while black had 4 versus 3 on the queenside) was useful to know about, I think.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #75 - 02/16/13 at 18:36:17
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Just bumping this back up. Any new analysis/games of the e3 and Nh3?
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #74 - 08/20/11 at 17:19:48
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bump.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #73 - 08/04/11 at 17:33:18
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Markovich wrote on 08/04/11 at 00:44:17:
[...]I want neither to enter into an analytical dispute about 4.e3, 5.Nh3, which we could no doubt carry on at great length, nor to abandon my belief that it's reasonably good for White. So I will simply note that we disagree and not carry on further here.

I'll say again, though, that I think Taylor's plan is Black's best.

Taylor's plan is sound, yes. Your proposed early Bd2-c3 as a possible reaction also makes sense - studying the 4.e4 Budapest I had a case when g6/Bg7 was very resilient, finally the set-up with Bd2-c3 seemed best. - But I have my experiences with Nh3-f4 in the Leningrad Dutch, and here you don't even have the Bg2. Nh3 scores well in the Budapest, but the surprise effect will eventually run out.


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Markovich wrote on 08/01/11 at 02:09:19:
In that other, diagrammed position, it looks to me like White has 4 versus 3 on the kingside; 3 stopping 4 on the queenside; the two bishops; essentially no weaknesses; and all the time in the world to play it out. Maybe a Black with good technique can draw that after 80 moves or so, but I wouldn't want to try it myself. - In the Budapest, Black can almost always say, "See how solid I am?" Big wup.

If White had a Knight on e2, he might have something, but what are you doing with the Be2? To hint at the bishop pair seems simplistic to me. After f3-f4 the Bc6 will be a strong piece. Black's plan f6, Nf7-g5 (-e6) makes things even more difficult for White. Depending from the situation, Black can play on the a-file, exchange rooks, play g7-g5 or play for a break with f5. I'd rather play with Black.
  
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Markovich
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #72 - 08/04/11 at 00:44:17
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That last is rather long analysis, Stefan, and I respectfully doubt that 7...d5 is any good.  But for the time being I want neither to enter into an analytical dispute about 4.e3, 5.Nh3, which we could no doubt carry on at great length, nor to abandon my belief that it's reasonably good for White. So I will simply note that we disagree and not carry on further here.

I'll say again, though, that I think Taylor's plan is Black's best.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #71 - 08/02/11 at 15:55:01
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Jon Tait's proposal is indeed very inspiring. 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. e3 Nxe5 5. Nh3 d5 6. cxd5 Bxh3 7. gxh3 Bb4+ 8. Nc3 0-0 9. Bg2 Nbd7 10. 0-0 (B. Kohlweyer - T. Lochte, Bad Wiessee 1999), but now the game continuation 10...f5? is wrong, as TN demonstrates. Instead, 10...Ng6!

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(with ideas like Nh4 and maybe Bc5/d6 and a later f7-f5) gives Black fine play, e.g. 11.e4 Nh4 12.Bf4 Bxc3 13.bxc3 f5 14.f3 Qf6 15.Qd4 Nxg2 16.Kxg2 Qg6+ 17.Kh1 fxe4 18.fxe4 c5 19.Qc4 b5 20.Qe2 Nf6.
But back to Markovich's post:

Quote:
The only time it ever came up in my cc practice was against John Moussesian, a strong U.S. player. As I recall it went 5.Nh3 Bb4+?! 6.Bd2 Bxd2+ 7.Qxd2. The exchage of bishops only helps White.

Even here 7...d5!? is interesting: 8.Qxd5 (not 8.cxd5?? Bxh3 9.gxh3 Nf3+ -+) 8...Qe7! (apparently a novelty)

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For example: 9.Nc3 c6 10.Qe4 Bxh3 11.gxh3 0-0 12.f4 Qh4+ 13.Ke2 Qh5+ 14.Kd2 Ned7 15.Rg1 Nc5 16.Qg2 Rd8+ 17.Ke1 Ne6 18.Be2 Qa5 19.a3 Qb6! with compensation.
  
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TN
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #70 - 08/02/11 at 08:24:27
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A nice idea, but in the Kohlweyer-Lochte game White seemed better out of the opening. Instead of 13.Bg2, 13.Bd5 Kh8 14.f4 looks quite good, and 11.Qb3 might be even better.
  

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Jonathan Tait
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #69 - 08/02/11 at 05:56:39
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How about 5...d5 - ? For instance:

  

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Markovich
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #68 - 08/01/11 at 14:34:42
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/01/11 at 13:09:21:
Markovich, do you have any correspondence wins with 5.Nh3 you can share?


The only time it ever came up in my cc practice was against John Moussesian, a strong U.S. player. As I recall it went 5.Nh3 Bb4+?! 6.Bd2 Bxd2+ 7.Qxd2. The exchage of bishops only helps White. What happened then was that Black got castled kingside while I got my KN to d5. Black then forgot about White's plan of f4, f5, f6 (with tempo) which was duly executed and produced Black's early resignation. So it was neither very informative nor very challenging, I'm afraid.

I will say that in club level play, the chance to ram that f-pawn comes up surprisingly often.

I think Black's best defense may be that given by Taylor; ...g6, ...d6 and Nbd7-c5. It's a game of chess.  My latest thinking is that White should play Bd2 just as soon as Black plays ...g6, and Bc3 just as soon as ...Bg7.  Black's dark-square bishop is a better piece than White's in all these lines, so White should try to exchange the two.
« Last Edit: 08/01/11 at 15:54:26 by Markovich »  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #67 - 08/01/11 at 13:09:21
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Markovich, do you have any correspondence wins with 5.Nh3 you can share?

  
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Markovich
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Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #66 - 08/01/11 at 02:09:19
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/12/11 at 16:06:21:
Markovich wrote on 07/12/11 at 13:10:52:
I think that actually there are a few lines against the Budapest where White has all the fun and Black struggles in a "solid" but lifeless position.  My favorite one is 3...Ng4 4.e3 Nxe5 5.Nh3.  I'm not very impressed by Taylor's 5...g6 antidote to this.  Various people have recommended 5...Ng6, but I think that then White can build up slowly with 6.g3, Bg2, O-O, Nc3, f4 and so on and so forth, and Black must just sit tight and wait for White's kingside expansion. [...]

A Budapest article on my desk (by s.o. else), I contributed to the analysis. After 5.Nh3, Black plays 5...d6 first, and g6 only later. In this case you don't have 6.g3 because of Bg4. You don't get the slightest edge with 5.Nh3.


Sorry, I missed this.

Well Stefan, I admit that my liking for 5.Nh3 is a little bit subjective, but I don't agree that White gets nothing. After 5...d6, White should play 6.Nf4, I would think, the prevention of which was the point of 5...Ng6.

In that other, diagrammed position, it looks to me like White has 4 versus 3 on the kingside; 3 stopping 4 on the queenside; the two bishops; essentially no weaknesses; and all the time in the world to play it out. Maybe a Black with good technique can draw that after 80 moves or so, but I wouldn't want to try it myself.

In the Budapest, Black can almost always say, "See how solid I am?" Big wup.
  

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