ChessPub Forum - recourses for QGD Vienna

najdorfslayer Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 153 Joined: 05/08/09	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #20 - 11/18/09 at 12:45:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Semi Tarrasch occurs frequently at highest level but it usually occurs via an English move order so ruling out the variation mentioned above, but rather playing into an e3 or g3 variation (I get them a lot in my games).


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4904 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #19 - 11/16/09 at 18:19:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'd agree that it has some similarity to the Gruenfeld, and that it seems that roughly speaking one should be += and the other =. If to you that equates to the S-T being "(just) a (vastly) inferior version of the Gruenfeld," so be it. I've seen differing views on 7. a3 over the years, ranging from Schandorff's to the opposite (i.e. that 7. Nf3 is better).


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #18 - 11/16/09 at 14:28:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	This has been played in countless games and considered at length by theory. I think the theoretical verdict is +=, but I was unable to win as White the last time this came up in my practice. Ruslan treated this position at some length recently, and expressed the opinion that White should be better. But it strikes me as facile to call this an "inferior Gruenfeld." What's to compare, since Black hasn't fianchettoed but has rather caused the dark-square bishops to be exchanged off? I would agree that Black's position lacks the dynamism that you would see in many Gruenfelds, but his aims are different here. Schandorff prefers 7.a3 to 7.Nf3, avoiding simplification at the expense of a tempo, and even gives it an exclam, if I recall correctly.

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Re: recourses for QGD Vienna
Reply #17 - 11/16/09 at 06:41:51

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kylemeister wrote on 11/15/09 at 17:49:57:

I just thought it a bit odd to refer to the Semi-Tarrasch as a version of the Gruenfeld, and a "vastly" inferior one at that (one might have thought you were talking about 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 d5 or something). True, it seems that the usual view in recent years has been that it should be "+=" with best play. And indeed it hasn't been popular at the top for some time (by the way, with the Kasparov comment I would think you're referring to the Tarrasch), though I'm not sure that that should be of much importance to most players (some might even consider it a plus) ...

This is the line given by the poster to avoid the exchange variation in QGD: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 Nd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 c5 7. Nf3 cxd4 8. cxd4 Bb4+ 9. Bd2 Bxd2 10. Qd2 0-0 11. Bc4

and now 11. ... Nd7 or 11. ... b6. I think this is just an inferior version of the Gruenfeld. Do you disagree?

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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4904 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #16 - 11/15/09 at 17:49:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	F22 wrote on 11/15/09 at 17:15:09: kylemeister wrote on 11/15/09 at 14:42:23: So, the Semi-Tarrasch is "a vastly inferior version of the Gruenfeld" ...who knew? BTW, this reminds me of Fischer annotating 4...Nxd5 (which he played) with "4...ed leads to the kind of woodpushing which always bored me." When was the last time somebody in top 10 played semi-Tarrasch? Compare that with Grunfeld. So lots of people know. Fischer played it (Petrosian - Fischer, 1971 candidate matches) but that was 38 years ago! Kasparov also used to play it I think (the 1984 match?) but disastrous results against Karpov lead him abandon it very quickly. I just thought it a bit odd to refer to the Semi-Tarrasch as a version of the Gruenfeld, and a "vastly" inferior one at that (one might have thought you were talking about 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 d5 or something). True, it seems that the usual view in recent years has been that it should be "+=" with best play. And indeed it hasn't been popular at the top for some time (by the way, with the Kasparov comment I would think you're referring to the Tarrasch), though I'm not sure that that should be of much importance to most players (some might even consider it a plus) ...


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F22 Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 306 Joined: 07/16/09 Gender:	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #15 - 11/15/09 at 17:15:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	kylemeister wrote on 11/15/09 at 14:42:23: So, the Semi-Tarrasch is "a vastly inferior version of the Gruenfeld" ...who knew? BTW, this reminds me of Fischer annotating 4...Nxd5 (which he played) with "4...ed leads to the kind of woodpushing which always bored me." When was the last time somebody in top 10 played semi-Tarrasch? Compare that with Grunfeld. So lots of people know. Fischer played it (Petrosian - Fischer, 1971 candidate matches) but that was 38 years ago! Kasparov also used to play it I think (the 1984 match?) but disastrous results against Karpov lead him abandon it very quickly.


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4904 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #14 - 11/15/09 at 14:42:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	So, the Semi-Tarrasch is "a vastly inferior version of the Gruenfeld" ...who knew? BTW, this reminds me of Fischer annotating 4...Nxd5 (which he played) with "4...ed leads to the kind of woodpushing which always bored me."


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #13 - 11/15/09 at 11:58:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Antillian wrote on 11/15/09 at 10:14:16: Quite a few Ragozins and Viennas - three of each - in the recently concluded Tal Memorial. This will likely spark some interest in these systems. Call it a hunch, but Kramnik's ...Qd8 Vienna QGD probably isn't going to get a huge following.

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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #12 - 11/15/09 at 10:14:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quite a few Ragozins and Viennas - three of each - in the recently concluded Tal Memorial. This will likely spark some interest in these systems.

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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F22 Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 306 Joined: 07/16/09 Gender:	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #11 - 11/15/09 at 09:10:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	I contacted GM Semkov, he is saying that the idea is shelved since the author (a GM who is also his friend) lost interest.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #10 - 11/15/09 at 07:48:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Alternatively, if one has the NID in their repertoire already, they can exclusively use the Vienna QGD against 3. Nf3, given that exchange variation isn't as good.

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F22 Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 306 Joined: 07/16/09 Gender:	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #9 - 11/15/09 at 07:23:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	TN wrote on 11/15/09 at 06:59:00: Play 4...Nd5 5.e4 Nc3 6.bc3 c5 7.Nf3 cd4 8.cd4 Bb4 9.Bd2 Bd2 10.Qd2 0-0 11.Bc4 Nd7 or 11...b6, when White's edge is no greater than in the critical lines of the Nge2 Exchange. I dont think anyone will aim for a vastly inferior version of the Grunfeld. Which contemporary players play this line?


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TN YaBB Moderator Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #8 - 11/15/09 at 06:59:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	F22 wrote on 11/15/09 at 06:25:36: Stupid question: can someone explain what the difference between "QGD Ragozin" and "QGD Vienna" is (to explain my ignorance I have never played QGD with Black)?? Also if you base a repertoire on the latter, how are you going to deal with the dreaded exchange variation (the reason I never play QGD): 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 ?? Play 4...Nd5 5.e4 Nc3 6.bc3 c5 7.Nf3 cd4 8.cd4 Bb4 9.Bd2 Bd2 10.Qd2 0-0 11.Bc4 Nd7 or 11...b6, when White's edge is no greater than in the critical lines of the Nge2 Exchange. As far as I know, the Ragozin is 4...Bb4 and the Vienna is 4...dc4 although they can transpose into each other.

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F22 Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 306 Joined: 07/16/09 Gender:	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #7 - 11/15/09 at 06:25:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stupid question: can someone explain what the difference between "QGD Ragozin" and "QGD Vienna" is (to explain my ignorance I have never played QGD with Black)?? Also if you base a repertoire on the latter, how are you going to deal with the dreaded exchange variation (the reason I never play QGD): 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 ??


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 430 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: recourses for QGD Vienna Reply #6 - 10/22/09 at 21:02:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Still no sign of the chess stars book ever happening is there?


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