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Normal Topic Bird Double Fianchetto as English Defence Reversed (Read 3269 times)
BirdBrain
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Re: Bird Double Fianchetto as English Defence Reversed
Reply #2 - 05/29/09 at 15:00:38
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Hey, my old buddy Link!  I have been trying your double fianchetto recently on the other site, and have just gotten into the sway of things.  However, in my game, they did not opt for c5-d5. It began as this...

1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. b3 g6 4. Bb2 Bg7 5. g3 Nc6 6. Bg2 Bg4 7. 0-0 0-0 8. e3 Qd6 9. Qe1 Nb4 10. Na3

Not in this particular order.  I am not asking for advice so that I can get ideas to play against him, but I am simply critiquing my ideas so far.  I already have chosen what I am going to try against him, which I explain here - however, anything that anyone chooses to contribute, I would like to consider in the future of my 1. f4 explorations.

For one, the primitive Nb4 causes White to question his setup, and where Black has not committed to c5 as of yet, they have an extra tempo for the ...e5 push.  I had debated after Nb4 swinging the queen back to c1 (instead of Na3) and if ...e5, then Ba3 winning the exchange pinning the queen to the rook.  But to give up a strong bishop for a rook that is not doing anything at the moment, well, that is a debatable choice.  Plus, the tempo spent swinging from Qd1-e1-c1 (or back to d1 even with the idea of a3 kicking the knight) was another that crossed my mind.

Right now, the knight is simply annoying, and I am not so sure about allowing Nxc2 or Nxa2, as I want to venture this game without allowing those options - not that they might not allow White counterplay, but simply on the basis of playing for a unique character of game. 

So here is where I stand this morning when thinking about the position.  I thought about playing Qf2, and then swinging my king rook to c1, and then preparing to assault the center. So, something like this - Qf2 / Rfc1 and then preparing c4... The downside to this, that I see at the moment, is the long diagonal a1-h8, but at the worst, if I avoid any tricks he may have, I will have given him a hole that he must cover as later tactics on the kingside can come into play.  Plus, shifting a piece from the kingside to the queenside does take away some time and power from that side of the board...however, his knight move did not help him to gain more control over e5.  And then, he also has the option of trying for c5 (which I doubt) and then swinging the knight behind the pawn, in Ruy Lopez fashion.

So I am simply throwing out this idea... Let's look at it this way...should White have tried to shore up with a3 or c3?  I don't really like those moves personally, as Black is about to fight for ...e5 quickly.  c3 blocks the diagonal.  a3 is a good move, but I think the timing is critical for something more active. 

This is my fun in chess!  Playing interesting, unique positions that require unique thought.  I normally play the e3 setup in the Bird - I never go straight into a queenside fianchetto normally, but I am swimming through different Bird setups to find what fits my personality (the Bird really is a complex system with many branches!).

I still like the fact that there is some pyschological edge - playing into a less played setup, where an opponent is less familiar, and it gives the game a nice character!  Not many 1. e4 games where there are still 8 pawns for each color some 10-20 moves into the game!  But I have seen that quite a few times in 1. f4 - the complexity is neat.

Anyway, there's my two cents on my little experience with this line.

I have also tried the mirror, with an early c4 and the double fianchetto, and it provides neat play, but of course, pushing f4 instead of c4 totally changes the early navigation tracks!

I would be interested if anyone has an alternate setup to the game I have posted above - maybe not moving the queen to e1 so quickly, or anything....thanks for your time.
  
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hiperburn
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Re: Bird Double Fianchetto as English Defence Reversed
Reply #1 - 05/04/09 at 16:11:58
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Hi linksspringer! I do like the double fianchetto Bird/Dutch. It surely leads to a much more complex game than the lines with Be2/Be7. What about these games!?

[Event "EU Ch 3. women"]
[Site "Varna"]
[Date "2002.05.29"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Gasparian, Narine"]
[Black "Grabuzova, Tatiana"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A40"]
[WhiteElo "2204"]
[BlackElo "2388"]

1. d4 e6 2. c4 b6 3. Nc3 Bb7 4. Nf3 f5 5. g3 Nf6 6. Bg2 g6 7. O-O Bg7 8. d5 Na6
9. Bf4 O-O 10. d6 c5 11. Nb5 Nb4 12. Nc7 Rb8 13. a3 Nc6 14. Ne5 Ne4 15. Nxc6
Bxc6 16. Qc1 Qf6 17. Bxe4 fxe4 18. Bh6 Bxh6 19. Qxh6 Qxb2 20. Qe3 Qe5 21. Rad1
Qh5 22. Nb5 Qh3 23. Nxa7 Ba8 24. Qg5 Rf5 25. Qh4 Qxh4 26. gxh4 e3 27. fxe3 Re5
28. Rd3 Be4 29. Rb3 Rh5 30. Rf4 Bf5 31. e4 e5 32. Rf2 Be6 33. Rg3 Rxh4 34. Nb5
Rxe4 35. Nc3 Rxc4 36. Re3 Kg7 37. Kg2 b5 38. Nd1 Rd4 39. Nb2 e4 40. Kg3 Rd2 0-1


[Event "Metz Open 16th"]
[Site "Metz FRA"]
[Date "1998.04.07"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Becq, Alain"]
[Black "Hamdouchi, Hichem"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A40"]
[BlackElo "2535"]

1. d4 e6 2. c4 b6 3. Nc3 Bb7 4. Nf3 f5 5. g3 Nf6 6. Bg2 g6 7. O-O Bg7 8. Bf4
O-O 9. Qd2 d6 10. Rfd1 Qe7 11. Rac1 Nbd7 12. Bg5 Rfe8 13. d5 e5 14. b4 Qf8 15.
Bxf6 Qxf6 16. e3 a6 17. h4 Rad8 18. a4 Bc8 19. Ng5 Nf8 20. Ne2 h6 21. Nf3 Nd7
22. Qa2 g5 23. hxg5 hxg5 24. Nc3 Qh6 25. Kf1 f4 26. exf4 exf4 27. Nd4 Ne5 28.
gxf4 gxf4 29. f3 Qh2 30. Ne4 Ng4 31. fxg4 Rxe4 32. Nf3 Qg3 33. g5 Re3 34. Qf2
Bg4 35. Re1 Rxf3 36. Bxf3 Bxf3 0-1


[Event "Pyramiden Franken Cup 1st"]
[Site "Fuerth GER"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stolte, Alexander"]
[Black "Hamdouchi, Hichem"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A40"]
[WhiteElo "2165"]
[BlackElo "2535"]

1. d4 e6 2. c4 b6 3. Nc3 Bb7 4. Nf3 f5 5. g3 Nf6 6. Bg2 g6 7. d5 Na6 8. Ne5 Nc5
9. O-O Bg7 10. Nd3 Nce4 11. Nxe4 fxe4 12. dxe6 dxe6 13. Bf4 O-O 14. Be5 Qe7 15.
Nc1 Ng4 16. Bxg7 Qxg7 17. Qb3 c5 18. Bh3 h5 19. e3 Rad8 20. Ne2 Rd2 21. Bxg4
hxg4 22. Nc3 Qf6 23. Nd1 Rd7 24. Nc3 Rh7 25. Qd1 Qf5 26. Qd6 Bc8 27. Rad1 Qh5
28. h4 gxh3 29. g4 h2+ 30. Kh1 Qxg4 31. Qg3 e5 32. Nd5 Rh3 33. Ne7+ Kf7 34.
Nxc8 Rxg3 35. fxg3+ Kg7 0-1


[Event "CCA ChessWise Int"]
[Site "Stratton Mountain, Vermont US"]
[Date "1999.06.16"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Salman, Joel"]
[Black "Shabalov, Alexander"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A40"]
[WhiteElo "2262"]
[BlackElo "2620"]

1. c4 e6 2. Nc3 b6 3. d4 Bb7 4. Nf3 f5 5. g3 Nf6 6. Bg2 g6 7. O-O Bg7 8. d5 O-O
9. dxe6 dxe6 10. Qxd8 Rxd8 11. Bf4 Na6 12. Ng5 Bxg2 13. Kxg2 Nc5 14. Bxc7 Rd2
15. Rab1 Nfe4 16. Nf3 Bxc3 17. Nxd2 Bxd2 18. Rfd1 Bh6 19. f3 Nf6 20. Rd8+ Rxd8
21. Bxd8 Kf7 22. b4 Nb7 23. Bxf6 Kxf6 24. Rb3 Bf8 25. Ra3 a5 26. c5 axb4 27.
Ra7 Nxc5 28. Rxh7 Na4 0-1



[Event "Atlantic Open"]
[Site "Washington, DC USA"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Allen, David J C"]
[Black "Shabalov, Alexander"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A40"]
[BlackElo "2615"]

1. d4 e6 2. c4 b6 3. Nf3 Bb7 4. g3 f5 5. Bg2 Nf6 6. O-O g6 7. Nc3 Bg7 8. b3 O-O
9. Bb2 Qe7 10. Qc2 d6 11. Rad1 Nbd7 12. Rfe1 a6 13. d5 e5 14. Ng5 Nc5 15. b4 h6
16. bxc5 hxg5 17. cxb6 cxb6 18. Qb3 Nd7 19. Ba3 Rab8 20. Rb1 e4 21. Na4 f4 22.
Bh3 Bc8 23. Be6+ Kh7 24. Nc3 Nf6 25. c5 dxc5 26. gxf4 gxf4 27. Na4 Bxe6 28.
dxe6 e3 29. fxe3 Ng4 30. exf4 Bd4+ 31. Kh1 Rxf4 32. Rf1 Qb7+ 33. Rf3 Nf2+ 34.
Kg2 Rg4+ 35. Kf1 Nd3 36. e4 Rg1+ 37. Ke2 Qxe4+ 38. Kd2 Rg2+ 0-1


[Event "chTeam-YUG"]
[Site "Vrnjacka Banja YUG"]
[Date "1999.08.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Todorcevic, Miodrag"]
[Black "Filipovic, Branko"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A04"]
[WhiteElo "2458"]
[BlackElo "2420"]

1. Nf3 b6 2. g3 Bb7 3. Bg2 e6 4. O-O f5 5. c4 Nf6 6. d4 g6 7. d5 Bg7 8. dxe6
dxe6 9. Qxd8+ Kxd8 10. Nc3 Ke7 11. Bf4 Na6 12. Be5 Rhd8 13. Rad1 Bh8 14. Nd4
Ne4 15. Bxh8 Rxh8 16. Nxe4 fxe4 17. Nb5 Bc6 18. a3 Nc5 19. Nxc7 Rac8 20. Nb5
Bxb5 21. cxb5 Rhd8 22. Rxd8 Rxd8 23. b4 Nb3 24. Rb1 Nd4 25. Rb2 e3 26. fxe3
Nxb5 27. Bc6 Rd1+ 28. Kf2 Nd6 29. Rc2 Ra1 30. Rc3 Kf6 31. a4 Rb1 32. Rd3 Ke7
33. b5 Rc1 34. Rd4 e5 35. Rb4 h5 36. h4 Kf6 37. Bd5 Rc3 38. e4 Ke7 39. Kg2 Kf6
40. Kf2 Rc1 1/2-1/2


[Event "Bundesliga 9900"]
[Site "GER"]
[Date "1999.10.09"]
[Round "1.6"]
[White "Heinbuch, Detlef"]
[Black "Hansen, Sune Berg"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A13"]
[WhiteElo "2394"]
[BlackElo "2558"]

1. c4 e6 2. Nf3 b6 3. g3 Bb7 4. Bg2 f5 5. O-O Nf6 6. d4 g6 7. Nc3 Bg7 8. d5 O-O
9. dxe6 dxe6 10. Qxd8 Rxd8 11. Bf4 Na6 12. Rad1 Ne4 13. Nxe4 Bxe4 14. b3 Re8
15. Ne1 Bxg2 16. Kxg2 e5 17. Bc1 Rad8 18. Nc2 Bf6 19. f3 Kf7 20. Kf2 Ke6 21.
Ba3 Nb8 22. Ne3 Bg5 23. Nc2 a5 24. e3 Na6 25. Ke2 Bf6 26. Rxd8 Rxd8 27. Rd1
Rxd1 28. Kxd1 Be7 29. Bxe7 Kxe7 30. Kd2 Nc5 31. Ne1 e4 32. Kc3 g5 33. a3 exf3
34. Nxf3 Ne4+ 35. Kd3 c5 36. Ne5 Ke6 37. Nc6 Nf6 38. Nd8+ Ke7 39. Nc6+ Kf7 40.
Ne5+ Ke6 41. Nf3 Ne4 42. a4 Kf6 43. Ke2 Nd6 44. Kd3 Nf7 45. e4 f4 46. gxf4 gxf4
47. Ke2 h6 48. Nh4 Kg5 49. Nf3+ Kf6 50. Nh4 Ne5 51. Nf5 h5 52. h3 Nc6 53. Kd3
Kg5 54. Ng7 Kh4 55. Ke2 Nd4+ 56. Kf2 Kg5 57. h4+ Kxh4 58. e5 Kg4 59. e6 Nc6 60.
Ne8 Kf5 61. Ng7+ Kg6 62. Ne8 h4 63. Nc7 Kf5 64. Nd5 Kxe6 65. Nxf4+ Kf5 66. Nd5
Nd4 67. Nxb6 Ke4 68. Kg2 Nxb3 69. Kh3 Kd4 70. Kxh4 Nd2 71. Kg3 Nxc4 72. Nd7 Nb2
73. Kf2 Nxa4 74. Ke2 Kc3 75. Kd1 c4 76. Kc1 Kb3 77. Ne5 Nc5 78. Nc6 Nd3+ 79.
Kb1 a4 80. Nd4+ Kc3 81. Nb5+ Kb4 82. Nd4 c3 83. Nc6+ Kc4 84. Na5+ Kb5 85. Nb7
Nb4 86. Nd6+ Kc5 87. Nb7+ Kc4 0-1


[Event "3. ACP Blitz Prelim3"]
[Site "playchess.com INT"]
[Date "2004.06.02"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Psakhis, Lev"]
[Black "Bauer, Christian"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A04"]
[WhiteElo "2545"]
[BlackElo "2595"]

1. Nf3 b6 2. g3 Bb7 3. Bg2 f5 4. d4 Nf6 5. c4 g6 6. O-O Bg7 7. Nc3 Ne4 8. Qc2
Nxc3 9. Qxc3 O-O 10. Rd1 e6 11. b3 c5 12. Bb2 Be4 13. Qd2 Nc6 14. d5 Bxb2 15.
Qxb2 exd5 16. cxd5 Nb4 17. Ne1 Qf6 18. Qd2 Rae8 19. a3 Bxg2 20. Nxg2 Na6 21.
Nf4 g5 22. Nd3 Nc7 23. Ne1 d6 24. Nf3 h6 25. b4 Nb5 26. e3 Nc3 27. Rdc1 Ne4 28.
Qc2 f4 29. exf4 gxf4 30. g4 h5 31. gxh5 Qf5 32. Kh1 Qxh5 33. Rg1+ Kh8 34. Qb2+
Rf6 35. Ng5 Rg8 36. Rae1 Rxg5 37. Rxg5 Qxg5 38. Rxe4 Kh7 39. Re1 Qxd5+ 40. Kg1
Rg6+ 41. Kf1 Qh1+ 42. Ke2 Re6+ 43. Kd3 Qxe1 0-1

[Event "2. Open"]
[Site "Calvia"]
[Date "2005.10.21"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Perez Aleman, Pedro Tomas"]
[Black "Bauer, Christian"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A04"]
[WhiteElo "2202"]
[BlackElo "2625"]

1. Nf3 b6 2. g3 Bb7 3. Bg2 f5 4. d4 Nf6 5. c4 g6 6. Nc3 Bg7 7. O-O O-O 8. Bg5
Na6 9. Qd2 e6 10. Rad1 Qe8 11. Bh6 Bxh6 12. Qxh6 Qe7 13. a3 c5 14. d5 exd5 15.
Nxd5 Bxd5 16. cxd5 Rae8 17. d6 Qg7 18. Qc1 Kh8 19. Qc4 Nb8 20. b4 cxb4 21. axb4
Rc8 22. Qa2 Nc6 23. b5 Na5 24. Rc1 Ne4 25. Rxc8 Rxc8 26. Qd5 Qf6 27. Qe5 Kg7
28. e3 Nc4 29. Qe7+ Qxe7 30. dxe7 Kf7 31. Ra1 Rc7 32. Rc1 Kxe7 33. Ne5 d5 34.
f3 Ned6 35. e4 Kf6 36. Nc6 dxe4 37. fxe4 fxe4 38. Bxe4 Nxe4 39. Rxc4 Nd6 40.
Rf4+ Ke6 41. Nd4+ Kd5 42. h4 Rc4 43. Ne2 Rxf4 44. Nxf4+ Ke5 45. Nd3+ Ke4 46.
Nf4 Nxb5 47. Ne6 a5 48. Ng5+ Kf5 49. Nf3 a4 50. Nd2 Nd4 51. Nb1 b5 52. Nc3 a3
53. Na2 Ke4 54. Kf2 Kd3 55. g4 Kc4 0-1


[Event "Tallin EST, Keres Mem (w) 06"]
[Site "Tallinn"]
[Date "2006.01.11"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Piarnpuu, Leili"]
[Black "Grabuzova, Tatiana"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A81"]
[WhiteElo "2174"]
[BlackElo "2355"]

1. d4 e6 2. Nf3 f5 3. g3 b6 4. Bg2 Bb7 5. O-O Nf6 6. c4 g6 7. Nc3 Bg7 8. d5 O-O
9. Bf4 Na6 10. Qd2 Nc5 11. dxe6 Nxe6 12. Ng5 Bxg2 13. Nxe6 dxe6 14. Qxd8 Rfxd8
15. Kxg2 Ne8 16. Rac1 Bf6 17. h4 c6 18. Rfd1 e5 19. Be3 Ng7 20. Rxd8+ Rxd8 21.
Rd1 Rxd1 22. Nxd1 Ne6 23. Bd2 Kf7 24. b3 e4 25. f3 exf3+ 26. exf3 f4 27. Nc3
fxg3 28. Kxg3 Nd4 29. Ne4 Nf5+ 30. Kh3 Bxh4 31. Bf4 Be7 32. Bb8 a6 33. Be5 Ke6
34. Bc3 h6 35. Bb2 Bf8 36. Bc3 Bg7 37. Bd2 Ke5 38. Nf2 Kd4 39. f4 h5 40. Kg2
Bf6 41. Kf3 Bh4 42. Ne4 Kd3 43. Bc3 Be7 44. Be5 Nh4+ 0-1


[Event "XVIII Open"]
[Site "Pula"]
[Date "2004.06.22"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Mandekic, Ivan"]
[Black "Sulava, Nenad"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A13"]
[WhiteElo "2232"]
[BlackElo "2478"]

1. Nf3 e6 2. c4 b6 3. g3 Bb7 4. Bg2 f5 5. O-O Nf6 6. d4 g6 7. Nc3 Bg7 8. Bg5 h6
9. Bxf6 Qxf6 10. e4 O-O 11. e5 Qd8 12. Nh4 Bxg2 13. Nxg2 c5 14. f4 cxd4 15. Nb5
Nc6 16. Nh4 Kh7 17. Nd6 Rg8 18. Nf3 Bf8 19. Nxd4 Bxd6 20. exd6 Rc8 21. Rf2 Qf6
22. Rd2 g5 23. fxg5 Rxg5 24. Rc1 Rg4 25. Nxc6 Rxc6 26. b3 Qe5 27. Rcc2 Re4 28.
Qh5 Rg4 29. Re2 Qxd6 30. Rcd2 Qc7 31. Rd3 Rd6 32. Red2 Rxd3 33. Rxd3 b5 0-1


[Event "Bled Open women"]
[Site "Bled SLO"]
[Date "1994.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Krmelj, Natasa"]
[Black "Matveeva, Svetlana"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A40"]
[WhiteElo "2020"]
[BlackElo "2405"]

1. d4 e6 2. c4 b6 3. Nc3 Bb7 4. Nf3 f5 5. g3 Nf6 6. Bg2 g6 7. O-O Bg7 8. Bf4
O-O 9. Qd2 Re8 10. Rad1 d6 11. b4 Nbd7 12. Rfe1 Qe7 13. Bh6 Ne4 14. Nxe4 fxe4
15. Bg5 Qf8 16. Nh4 h6 17. Nxg6 Qf7 18. Ne7+ Kh8 19. Bxh6 Rxe7 20. Bg5 Bf6 21.
Be3 Qh5 22. c5 Rh7 23. h3 Bd5 24. cxd6 cxd6 25. Rc1 b5 26. Rc7 Nb6 27. Rxh7+
Qxh7 28. f4 Nc4 29. Qc3 Qg7 30. Kh2 Nxe3 31. Qxe3 Bxd4 32. Qa3 Rg8 33. g4 Qh6
34. g5 Qh4 35. Rf1 Rc8 36. Qa6 Rc6 37. Qxb5 Bf2 38. e3 Bxe3 39. Qb8+ Kg7 40.
Qd8 Bxf4+ 41. Kh1 Qxg5 42. Qd7+ Kh6 43. Qf7 Be5 0-1
  
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linksspringer
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Posts: 376
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Bird Double Fianchetto as English Defence Reversed
02/05/09 at 16:31:09
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The Queen Fianchetto Bird (also called Real Bird or True Bird) can be fun to play, but less so if Black follows the modern main line:
1. f4 d5 2. b3 Nf6 3. Bb2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. e3 O-O 6. Be2 c5 7. O-O Nc6
Here, as Timothy Taylor notes, White can play for nothing more than dull equality, while trying for more can easily rebound.

However, White can try to spice things up by playing a double fianchetto. My Bird books don't mention this line, the only discussion I have found is in Keene's 1977 Nimzo-Larsen book:
1. f4 d5 2. b3 Nf6 3. Bb2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. g3
Dubious according to Keene, on account of:
5...O-O 6. Bg2 c5 7. O-O Nc6 8. e3 d4 9. Na3 Bf5

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Keene thinks Black has good play, citing a game Bellon-Furman 1973 that continued
10. Ne5 Nxe5 11. fxe5 Ng4 12. exd4 cxd4 13. Bxb7 Nxe5! (curiously, the line was repeated in Grabuzova - Zaiatz 2005)

However, for players of the English defence the diagrammed position looks rather familiar. And indeed, after
1. c4 b6 2. d4 Bb7 3. Nc3 e6 4. a3 f5 5. d5 Nf6 6. g3 g6 7. Bg2 Bg7 8. Nf3 [8.Nh3!] O-O 9. O-O Na6 10. Bf4
we have essentially the same position with reversed colours and the almost irrelevant insertion of a3.

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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
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This position is considered satisfactory for Black. King and Bauer follow a Morozevich game here with 10...exd5 11. cxd5 Nc5 while 10...Nc5 has scored very well in practice.
Which means that in the Bird case, 10. exd4 and 10. Nc4 should also be fine. I am not claiming a White advantage here, but at least it isn't dull.
Worthy of further investigation?
  
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