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Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 (Read 56259 times)

Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1953 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #19 - 02/10/09 at 11:24:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	@ urusov. I see your thinking, which I agree makes good sense in terms of your own repertoire choices. (I think that's maybe the key, rather than what involves one in less work [i]per se[/i] -- the KID in any form is surely labour-intensive in that respect!) I don't myself like 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5!, btw. I spent some time last year looking at Mestrovic's 2 ...Nb8!?, before (surprise, surprise) concluding White should get an edge (though the system is certainly playable!). Incidentally, re the Nimzo line 1 e4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4, linkspringer on another thread has made, I think, a very convincing case for 3 ...g6!. @ TN. Masterful stuff -- thanks for looking at this. Looking at these dismal lines I'm beginning to wonder if the best defence mightn't be 9 ...Bh3 10 Rh3 Qc8 11 Rh1 h5 despite the weakening of g5! Maybe Black can borrow an idea from the Czech Benoni and just castle, e.g. something like 12 Qe2 N8d7 13 Kf1 0-0 14 Kg2 Ng4 15 Ng5 c6. White presumably has some advantage but is it all that easy for him to find a convincing plan? -- if he goes for the queenside maybe Black can bolster with manoeuvres like ...Bd8/ ...Bb6/ ...Qc7, and if he goes for f2--f4 there'll be counterplay with ...ef and ...Re8. Probably I'm being far too optimistic! ... Apart from its intrinsic probable greater soundness, one other reason I guess for a Tango player preferring 3 ...e6 is the pleasure of playing the KID-related 4 a3 d6 5 Nc3 g6 set-up. Hence I found myself looking at the Zurich again, in particular the 6 Bg5 line but with 9 ...a5!?. I've posted here in the Nimzo/QID forum if you or anyone else fancies looking at this.


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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #18 - 02/10/09 at 06:22:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote author=nmga link=1233890161/0#14 date=1234138710]Thanks for this! -- looks like great stuff, but I've only had time for a dead-quick look 'cos I've had to work today, and on a Sunday, grrr! A couple of quick thoughts re your (3): (1) [Event "Budapest FS04 IM"] [Site "Budapest"] [Date "1998.04.04"] [Round "1"] [White "Eperjesi,Laszlo"] [Black "Hagesaether,Halvard"] [Result "1/2"] [Eco "A54"] 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 Nf8 9.Bh3 N8d7 [more thematic/Czech Benoni-ish?] 10.Be3 0-0 11.Kf1 Nb6 12.Nd2 Bxh3+ 13.Rxh3 Qd7 14.Kg2 Ng4 15.Qe2 f5 16.Bxb6 axb6 17.f3 Nh6 18.Rhh1 Rf7 19.Raf1 Raf8 20.exf5 Nxf5 21.Qd3 g5 22.h5 g4 23.fxg4 Nh6 24.Rxf7 Rxf7 25.g5 Bxg5 26.Nde4 Qe7 27.Nxg5 Qxg5 28.Ne4 Qg4 29.Rh4 Qf5 30.Qe2 Kh8 31.Nc3 Qg5 32.Ne4 Qf5 1/2 (2) 9 ...Bh3 10 Rh3 Qc8 11 Rh1 N8d7 12 h5 h6, e.g. (i) 13 Nh4 Nc5 14 Nf5 Nce4 15 Ng7 Kf8 16 Ne4 Ne4 =; (ii) 13 Kf1 Nc5 14 Qe2 Qg4 15 Rh4 Qd7 16 Be3 Na4; (iii) 13 Be3 Ng4 14 Bd2 Nc5 (14 ...Nb6!?). I'm sure there are duff moves here since these are cursory thoughts but they might be a basis for better exploration? [/quote] Your suggestions (particularly the second) are quite interesting, but I feel that White retains the advantage here as well. In the cited game with 9...N8d7, White can improve as early as move 10 with 10.h5! Nc5 (10...h6 11.Nh4 Nc5 is similar; 11...0-0 is possible but I can't see much counterplay for Black because White has a firm grip on the f5-outpost) 11.Bc8 Qc8 12.Qe2 h6 (allowing h6 does not seem to be a wise idea to me, and 12...Qg4 13.Nd2 Qe2 14.Ke2 is a passive ending for Black) 13.Nh4 and I think White has a comfortable advantage, as Black's c5-knight can be ousted with b4 at some point, and the f5-square is a nice outpost for a knight at some stage. Black can try ...c6 to create counterplay, but I don't really believe in it. Your 10...Qc8 idea looks like an improvement, however - it makes sense to gain a tempo on the rook first. Even so, White still has the advantage: 11.Rh1 N8d7 (11...h5 weakens the g5-square too much) 12.h5 h6 13.Nh4 (I agree that 13.Be3 Ng4 is just fine for Black, and 13.Kf1 Nc5 14.Qe2 a5 also looks okay for Black; I prefer this to 14...Qg4 in order to retain the c5-square for the knight. Returning to 13.Nh4 Nc5, instead of the dubious 14.Nf5, I think the simple 14.Qe2 is superior: White retains his grip on the light squares and can play Nf5 on the next move. Now I like 14...a5 best of all, as 14...Qd7 15.Nf5 0-0 16.f3 is very poor for Black, and the endgame with 14...Qg4 15.Nf5 Qe2 16.Ke2 Nfe4 17.Ne4 Ne4 18.f3! Ng5 19.Ng7 Kd7 20.Nf5, when White has a comfortable advantage owing to his superior minor pieces. After 14...a5, best is 15.Bd2!, exploiting the fact that Black doesn't have a particularly useful move here until White plays Nf5. 15...Qd7 (15...Rg8 16.Ng2!? or 16.Nf3 seems somewhat better for White) 16.Kf1 (16.Nf5 Nce4 17.Ng7 Kf8 18.Ne4 Kg7 19.Bc3 is possible but I don't see why Black should be any worse here) 16...0-0 17.Nf5 c6 and I think White has the advantage because of his extra space and superior minor pieces. Fritz quite likes the idea of 18.g4 followed by either a kingside attack or playing on the queenside.

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urusov Full Member Offline Posts: 147 Location: Kenilworth Joined: 08/04/05	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #17 - 02/09/09 at 20:42:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote author=nmga link=1233890161/15#16 date=1234171749]why, after 2 Nf3, does 2 ...g6 get [!], when after instead 2 ...e6 3 c4 you could have played 3 ...Nc6 which your upholding of 2 c4 Nc6 [3 Nf3 e6] implies you're happy with anyway!?[/quote] If you play 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 then you will have to prepare for a bunch of things other than 3.c4, including 3.g3 when you are basically committed to a Catalan or a Queen's Indian (unless you want to lose a tempo with ..d6 or something). White can also play 3.e3 (going Colle / Zukertort), 3.Bg5 (Torre-Tromp), even 3.b3!? I'd sooner play for a King's Indian formation, where the Tango against 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 helps me avoid some annoying lines (hence the exclam). In general, I want to get in ...e5 as Black whenever possible, so 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 does not appeal to me. If you want to play the Panther, that's great, but you may be better off playing 1.d4 Nc6 when White seems to have fewer well-developed options than he does after 1.d4 Nf6 -- when most of my games seem to end up going into irregular alternatives like the Barry Attack or Trompowsky Attack. With 1.d4 Nc6 you can avoid all that well-analyzed crap. I played it that way when I also played the Nimzovich Defense (1.e4 Nc6) so it was a universal solution and the Panther seemed structurally more related to the ...e5 positions I liked (e.g.: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5) than did the Chigorin. But now I am playing 1.e4 e5 as Black and don't want to get into Nimzovich Defense discussions (via, for instance, 1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.e4!) By 1.d4 Nc6, you generally reach the main Tango stuff indirectly, while giving White fewer options, e.g.: 1.d4 Nc6 2.c4 e5! 3.d5 Ne7 4.e4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Ng6 and you never even had to deal with the Nimzo-Indian lines that you don't like.


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1953 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #16 - 02/09/09 at 09:29:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm not sure I follow your logic, urusov. If you're saying that it's better for Black to risk the Matveeva--Stevens Zurich line than play the Panther I can understand that point of view. But it's nevertheless a bit dismal for Black, isn't it, so why after 2 c4 does 2 ...Nc6 deserve an exclamation mark? More importantly, why, after 2 Nf3, does 2 ...g6 get one, when after instead 2 ...e6 3 c4 you could have played 3 ...Nc6 which your upholding of 2 c4 Nc6 [3 Nf3 e6] implies you're happy with anyway!?


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urusov Full Member Offline Posts: 147 Location: Kenilworth Joined: 08/04/05	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #15 - 02/09/09 at 02:58:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am no longer a big fan of the Panther, by the way, though I still play it occasionally and enjoy its complexity. Lately I'd recommend combining the Tango repertoire laid out by Palliser and Orlov (with the Zurich Nimzo-Indian, some Bogo-Indian, and Bologan's KID ideas vs. Nf3 and a3) with a KID repertoire built around lines where White plays Nf3 (which allows you to avoid Saemish and Four Pawns headaches). Basically you just need the Tango repertoire, Classical KID, Fianchetto lines (with white Nf3 and g3), and some KID sidelines. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6! 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6! Now if only someone could tell me how best to deal with Trompowsky, Barry Attack, and Veresov stuff as a Tango / KID player, I'd have the whole repertoire worked out....


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1953 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #14 - 02/09/09 at 00:18:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for this! -- looks like great stuff, but I've only had time for a dead-quick look 'cos I've had to work today, and on a Sunday, grrr! A couple of quick thoughts re your (3): (1) [Event "Budapest FS04 IM"] [Site "Budapest"] [Date "1998.04.04"] [Round "1"] [White "Eperjesi,Laszlo"] [Black "Hagesaether,Halvard"] [Result "1/2"] [Eco "A54"] 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 Nf8 9.Bh3 N8d7 [more thematic/Czech Benoni-ish?] 10.Be3 0-0 11.Kf1 Nb6 12.Nd2 Bxh3+ 13.Rxh3 Qd7 14.Kg2 Ng4 15.Qe2 f5 16.Bxb6 axb6 17.f3 Nh6 18.Rhh1 Rf7 19.Raf1 Raf8 20.exf5 Nxf5 21.Qd3 g5 22.h5 g4 23.fxg4 Nh6 24.Rxf7 Rxf7 25.g5 Bxg5 26.Nde4 Qe7 27.Nxg5 Qxg5 28.Ne4 Qg4 29.Rh4 Qf5 30.Qe2 Kh8 31.Nc3 Qg5 32.Ne4 Qf5 1/2 (2) 9 ...Bh3 10 Rh3 Qc8 11 Rh1 N8d7 12 h5 h6, e.g. (i) 13 Nh4 Nc5 14 Nf5 Nce4 15 Ng7 Kf8 16 Ne4 Ne4 =; (ii) 13 Kf1 Nc5 14 Qe2 Qg4 15 Rh4 Qd7 16 Be3 Na4; (iii) 13 Be3 Ng4 14 Bd2 Nc5 (14 ...Nb6!?). I'm sure there are duff moves here since these are cursory thoughts but they might be a basis for better exploration?


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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #13 - 02/08/09 at 12:01:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for the link to the thread & Goeller's site - I knew that there was an old thread on this line but couldn't find it. I looked through the thread and Goeller's survey on the Panther, but I'm still not convinced by it objectively. However, as shown by the articles on this line, if White doesn't know of this line then Black can probably get away with it. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 (After 4.d5 Ne5 5.Ne5 de5, 6.g3 may be more precise than 6.e4, but Black seems to be okay here as well) 4...e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 (6...g6 7.c5 is better for White as shown earlier in this thread) and now I think 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 is better for White. Addressing 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 first: a) 8...Bg4 9.Bh3 is simply better for White as it is difficult for Black to create active play. b) 8...0-0 9.h5 Nh8 10.Bh3 is also just better for White, as shown by Goeller. White will then play Nh4 and leave Black with no kingside counterplay. Compare with 6.g3 Be7 7.h4! against the Czech Benoni. c) 8...Nf8 is possible, but now White is up two full tempi compared to the 5.e4 Be7 6.g3 Nbd7 7.h4 Nf8 Czech Benoni - no ...c5 and Nf3 included for White. This has to give him an advantage, e.g. 9.Bh3 Bh3 10.Rh3 N8d7 11.h5 and even though the computer claims equality, I think White is better due to his extra space and slightly more active pieces. d) 8...h6 9.h5 Nf8 10.Nh4 N6d7 is claimed to be unclear by Goeller, but this looks like a somewhat lazy assessment, since after 11.Bh3 Bh4 12.Bc8 Qc8 13.Rh4 White just seems better to me - the h7-knight is misplaced.

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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1953 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #12 - 02/08/09 at 10:11:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	I see what you mean, TN, and I agree with kylemeister that the pseudo-KID allowing c5 and Bb5 is unappealing for Black. Relative disadvantages apart, I guess one reason I’m still drawn to the Panther (at my humble club level) is that play might be more strategically complex – I feel I might have more practical chances to create interesting counterplay, in positions less familiar to my opponents, than when I’m being pressured in the Zurich Nimzo line with 0-0-0. And, though I make no particular claims for it, I’m heartened that Black seems to have found some new ideas/plans in the Panther in recent years. I hope I’ll be forgiven for quoting (below) an old post of mine on the subject – obviously, all comments most welcome! Page 2 of this thread -- http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1201973602/0 --, with stuff on both the Tango and the Panther, might also be of interest, including to saubikhr, who I hope might tell us how he likes to handle the Zurich? … ***** The Panther: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 Nc6 3 Nf3 d6!? I couldnt resist! Having had a look at urusovs sites on this (see http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2006/02/panther-part-one.html) I thought Id start a separate thread on this interesting system. As Uberdeker pointed out in another thread, it’s essentially an Old Indian with ...Nc6. It can be reached via a number of move orders, however (for which see Urusov’s site). I chose the order above just for ease of setting out the main variations, since White has a number of fourth-move choices here. Also, this move order might suit a Tango player looking for an alternative to a Zurich Nimzo-Indian after 3 Nf3. Urusov quotes Richard Palliser as recommending 4 d5 Ne5 5 Ne5 de 6 g3 as conferring a small edge. I notice, however, that the young Ukrainian GM Miroshnichenko hasnt been afraid to try this for Black, and has done OK after 6 ...e6 7 Bg2 ed (7 ...Bb4!?) 8 cd Bd6 9 0-0 0-0 10 Nc3 h6 or 10 ...a6. The other non-main line Richard mentions is 4 Nc3 e5 (the point) 5 g3. Here Urusov seems to recommend 5 ...Bf5!?. I notice also that another Panther devotee, Slapikas, has played 5 ...Bg4!?, and that Larsen has played 5 ...ed 6 Nd4 Bd7, which might reach A15, A25 or E60 positions! The main line though must be 4 Nc3 e5 5 d5 Ne7 6 e4 Ng6 (on 6 ...g6, aiming for a KID, White can try 7 c5!? which Urusov thinks is unclear after 7 ...Bg7 8 Bb5 Bd7 [though I don’t myself see the attraction for Black]) 7 g3 Be7. Here White has two lines: (1) 8 Bg2 0-0 (Urusov also mentions 8 ...c5!? though Black has done very poorly with this) 9 0-0, and now praxis has seen (a) 9 ...c6 playing on the Queenside, (b) 9 ...Ne8 intending a quick ...f5 and (c) the newer 9 ...h6!?, intending ...Nh7 and ...Bg5 (and/or ...f5). (2) 8 h4!? h6 (8 ...Nf8!? [I prefer this – see the other thread]) and now 9 Bh3, 9 Qc2, and 9 h5!? Nf8 10 Nh4 N6h7 have all been played or suggested. As a Tango player, I’ve been aware of the traditional wisdom that ...Ng6 plans aren’t so good if White can play g2--g3, but the Panther aims to prove this wrong. Does it succeed? Anyone got any thoughts on the variations above, or others?


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4939 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #11 - 02/08/09 at 00:26:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Regarding the Panther (a new term for me), I would have thought that the main objection to 6...g6 (vis-a-vis the regular KID) is that White can quickly get in c5.


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saubhikr Senior Member Offline Chess is a cruel game but I still love it Posts: 332 Location: Milwaukee, WI, USA Joined: 10/29/06 Gender:	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #10 - 02/08/09 at 00:21:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	@TN Good to know that you used to play Tango. Too bad that you gave up. Do you still play from time to time or not at all ? Please share some games of yours.


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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #9 - 02/07/09 at 23:49:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Michael Ayton I tend to agree with you, although given the choice between the Zurich and the Panther, I would probably play the Zurich. In the Panther (I assume you are referring to the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 d6), White seems to gain a slight advantage quite easily with 4.Nc3 e5 (I don't trust 4...Bg4 at all after 5.d5 Ne5 6.Ne5 Ne5 7.Qb3) 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 with either an improved Tango for White after 6...Ng6 because Black can't develop his king's bishop actively to c5 or b4, or an improved King's Indian after 6...g6 because Black's e7-knight is misplaced, and a kingside attack with ...f5-f4 is not as effective because White is not committed to castling. I prefer 4.Nc3 followed by d5 to the immediate 4.d5, as after 4...Ne5 (I don't trust 4...Nb8) 5.Ne5 de5 6.Nc3 e6 Black's position seems perfectly playable in spite of White's extra space. I think objectively the Zurich is still a little bit better than the Panther, since (in my opinion) White has to display more precision in the Zurich than in the Panther to obtain a stable advantage. However, I will admit that I eventually gave up the Tango because of being forced into the dubious Zurich Variation.

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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1953 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #8 - 02/07/09 at 22:54:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote]There is a line in the Khalifman book (Ofwat~Kramnik Vo. 2) that may have contributed to this perspective.[/quote] I suspect what may have contributed most was saubhikr's perhaps slightly hyper anxiety about having every Tango base covered! Like others, I had no thought that 4 a3 was a bust. I'm intrigued though by your happiness with the Zurich Nimzo, saubhikr. Personally I find the lines TN gives rather dismal for Black and, surprisingly perhaps, for now I'd rather take my chances in a 'Panther' (Old Indian with arguably premature ...Nc6)! How do you like to handle Black's position in the Zurich?


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drkodos God Member Offline I see....stars. Posts: 778 Location: Jupiter, and beyond Joined: 03/29/07	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #7 - 02/07/09 at 19:50:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	kylemeister wrote on 02/07/09 at 19:12:40: I wonder who claimed 4. a3 to be a bust (implausible though such a claim may be); as far as I recall, I've only seen it claimed to lead to a slight advantage (including against that ...d6 and ...g6 stuff). There is a line in the Khalifman book (Ofwat~Kramnik Vo. 2) that may have contributed to this perspective. The anti-Tango 4.a3 can be tricky for Black as White has a free hand with regard to which system he wishes to employ, but Black gets playable positions in all lines. White can probably keep a slight to nagging advantage, but it is hardly a "refutation."

	I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4939 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #6 - 02/07/09 at 19:12:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	I wonder who claimed 4. a3 to be a bust (implausible though such a claim may be); as far as I recall, I've only seen it claimed to lead to a slight advantage (including against that ...d6 and ...g6 stuff).


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drkodos God Member Offline I see....stars. Posts: 778 Location: Jupiter, and beyond Joined: 03/29/07	Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 Reply #5 - 02/07/09 at 18:23:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	saubhikr wrote on 02/07/09 at 17:24:00: I am fine with Zurich on the black side. Main worry is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 4.a3 Does this bust Tango ? No. Play 4. ...d6 5. Nc3 g6 and go into KID as shown in Palliser book.

	I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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