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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 (Read 56267 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #34 - 01/03/11 at 22:16:26
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8.h4 Nf8 9.Be2 Nfd7 10.Be3 0-0 11.Nd2 (Rohde-Hagesaether) and here perhaps 11...c6 again.

How do you meet 12 g4? I haven't yet seen a good way to deal with White's space advantage. But shouldn't Black just have played 10 ...Ng4?

In Portisch-Hagesaether I wonder if Black can just castle and hope to weather h5/Nh4/Nf5 stuff because the light-squared Bishops won't get exchanged as after Bh3, but really I'm at the very beginning (as you probably realise!) of trying to understand these rather interesting positions.
« Last Edit: 01/03/11 at 23:18:18 by Michael Ayton »  
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topandkas
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #33 - 01/03/11 at 17:55:10
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Btw, I dont like ...c7-c5 in these kind of positions. Maybe this is a matter of preference but in general I have more faith in ...c7-c6.
  
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topandkas
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #32 - 01/03/11 at 17:41:56
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Apart from the fact that I still think that 7.h4 is slightly more accurate than 7.g3, Linksspringer's suggested lines look pretty decent to me. I too think that Black is actually doing quite okay in these lines so if the is this most dangerous way to meet the Panther then I will seriously consider taking it in as part of my repertoire. Compared to a standard KID (or a Czech Benoni) I dont think Black is doing any worse.
  
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linksspringer
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #31 - 01/03/11 at 17:05:10
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(1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 7.g3 Be7)
I suggest:
8.Be2 c6 9.h4 cxd5 10.cxd5 Nf8 or
8.h4 Nf8 9.Be2 Nfd7 10.Be3 0-0 11.Nd2 (Rohde-Hagesaether) and here perhaps 11...c6 again.
I am avoiding 8.Be2 c6 9.h4 Nf8 10.c5 or 8.h4 Nf8 9.Be2 c6 10.c5 (maybe not deadly, but still annoying).
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #30 - 01/03/11 at 15:03:15
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These sound like very sensible judgements to me.

Black doesn't look to be too badly off in the 8 ...Nf8!? 9 Bh3 line, so next step I think may be to take a look at Rohde-Hagesaether (9 Be2) and Portisch-Hagesaether (8 Be2!? c5!? 9 h4), though the first of these was a blitz game and ended after an awful blunder by Black. Would love to hear/share opinions about these.
  
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topandkas
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #29 - 01/02/11 at 09:45:40
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I still haven't had a thorough look at the positions arising after 6...Nd7 but I must say I like it less and less. Not so much because of 7.h4 (which btw may be a decent try as well) but mainly because of 7.Be3 and even 7.g4!? Im not sure about the ladder but 7.Be3 certainly feels right. The bishop no longer has to worry about ...Ng4 ideas and also supports a quick c4-c5 thrust which must be a critical test to Blacks setup with knights stuck on d7 and e7. 

One should also note, that having both kings in the center almost unvariably favors White, because his space advantage allows him to more freely coordinate actions on both flanks whereas Black does better to just castle and quickly focus his attention on one of the flanks (usually the kingside but not necessarily).
In this opening, I can hardly think of any likely scenarios in which Black can seriously consider ...0-0-0 nor just leaving his king in the center, whereas White may choose either of the three options. Therefore, Black does better to just quickly castle and start playing on one of the flanks.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #28 - 01/01/11 at 17:48:16
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So my point is just that 7.h4 opens up to more pitfalls for the Black player, although if the Black player knows/sees the plan ...Be7 followed by ...Nf8 then this is just a transpositional matter.

Yes, good point!

Quote:
On another note, I couldnt help wonder how White is supposed to punish:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.e4 d6 6.Nf3 Nd7!?

If Black doesnt trust the Panther variation isnt this just a viable way for Black to reach a KID?

I thought of this a while ago, but then I saw the game Hillarp Persson-Reijneveld which White won after 7 h4!?. (White has also tried 7 Be3 and 7 Bd3 here.) I didn't look closely so I don't know if this is a refutation or not, but I suspected the head-for-KID plan might be dubious when White hasn't played 0-0. Then again, Black hasn't castled either so maybe this is worth a look? -- what do you reckon? 

  
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topandkas
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #27 - 01/01/11 at 14:56:21
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Yeah, you are probably right h5-h6 is very double-edged. But I just thought that h4 is more forcing (and thus more precise?) as all other moves than 7...Be7 seem to be bad. My idea was to tempt Black to play Bg4/h6/h5 neither of which I think are very strong. One should also note that conceptionally it may be harder for the Black player to correctly forsee and evaluate 7...Be7 followed by 8...Nf8. If White plays 7.g3 then 7...Be7 is by far the most logical response and after 8.h4 then 8...Nf8 is somewhat easier to find and evaluate. So my point is just that 7.h4 opens up to more pitfalls for the Black player, although if the Black player knows/sees the plan ...Be7 followed by ...Nf8 then this is just a transpositional matter.


On another note, I couldnt help wonder how White is supposed to punish:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.e4 d6 6.Nf3 Nd7!?

If Black doesnt trust the Panther variation isnt this just a viable way for Black to reach a KID?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #26 - 01/01/11 at 14:12:02
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[quote]Correct me if Im wrong but isnt 7.h4 just an improvement over 7.g3 ? [/quote]
Why should this be? After 7 ...Be7 I presume the plan is 8 h5 Nf8, but are you going to go h5-h6? Here I must defer to the judgement of stronger players, but my feeling is that this is often not a strong threat. The main strategic purpose of h4-h5 may be Nh4-f5, but doesn't this lose in strength if Black hasn't been forced into ...h6? Meanwhile if White goes h4-h5 then doesn't find a terribly strong plan Black may get in the standard ...Be7-g5, as in Touzane-Hagesaether.
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #25 - 01/01/11 at 12:55:29
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Correct me if Im wrong but isnt 7.h4 just an improvement over 7.g3 ?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #24 - 12/31/10 at 18:22:10
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I think the 'Panther' is still a very fruitful field for research, whatever the future verdict! I was surprised to find that 8 ...Nf8 is so rare: only three games in my databases, all with the same Black player -- it deserves to be called the Hagesaether Variation! Interesting that Rohde forsook 9 Bh3 in favour of [u]9 Be2[/u]; and that Portisch also beat H. with 7 g3 Be7 [u]8 Be2[/u], when H chose, with 8 ...c5 (8 ...c6!?, 8 ...0-0!?), to transpose to a not-too-common Czech Benoni line (6 Nf3 Nbd7 7 Be2 Nf8 8 g3!? Ng6).
« Last Edit: 01/01/11 at 13:11:13 by Michael Ayton »  
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linksspringer
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #23 - 12/31/10 at 15:35:03
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OK, I see what you mean.  Wink
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 Nf8 9.Bh3 Bxh3 10.Rxh3 N8d7  11.h5 c6)
Yes, 12.Nh4 g6 13.hxg6 hxg6 followed by cxd5 or 12...cxd5 first.
Or 12.h6 g6 followed by ...cxd5.
Black gets the c-file and White's pieces are starting to look a bit uncoordinated to me.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #22 - 12/31/10 at 14:35:27
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The point of 10 ...Qc8 is to reach the Eperjesi-Hagesaether line with 10 h5! Nc5 11 Bc8 Qc8 12 Qe2 a5!? one move nearer the time control. Cheesy

But seriously, I see what you mean, even though messing around a bit with engines I thought Black got some play, possibly (after h6/...g6) with a medium-term ...Ng4 or ...Ne8 and ...f5, while if (if!) White castles queenside there's ...a4 and ...Ra6/...Rb6.

As regards the two tempi, I was thinking exactly the same! Tempi surely ain't the point here. Maybe this position can join other cases, such as the Smyslov QGA, as an example of how in certain circumstances Black can be tempo-prodigal without White getting a definite gain from it? On first blush I like 11 ...c6. Presumably the immediate 12 Nh4 will be met by just 12 ...g6, not fearing 13 hg?

  
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linksspringer
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #21 - 12/31/10 at 12:43:36
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[quote author=2122282E4F0 link=1233890161/20#20 date=1293782561]A couple of years on it looks like there hasn't been much action in this theoretical backwater -- what a surprise! Taking another look at some of the above lines, my attention fell on 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 d6 3 c4 Nc6 4 Nc3 e5 5 d5 Ne7 6 e4 Ng6 7 g3 Be7 8 h4 Nf8 9 Bh3 Bh3 10 Rh3 Qc8 11 Rh1 N8d7 12 h5, when TN gives [u]12 ...h6[/u] 13 Nh4 Nc5 14 Qe2! as good for White. Instead of 12 ...h6, I've a dim memory of having looked at and rejected the obvious [u]12 ...Nc5[/u], but I can't now see why. Is h5-h6 really a threat? How about 12 ...Nc5 13 Qe2 a5, meeting 14 h6 with 14 ...g6 and then ...0-0? Engines seem to think this is reasonable, but then it's a very unengineish position, so to say ...[/quote]
Interesting, but it still seems like Black doesn't have much play and White has a lot of time to rearrange his pieces. White still looks better.
Going back a bit, I don't really understand the purpose of 10...Qc8. I notice that TN wrote earlier:
[quote author=407C71446671677160677B7226252424140 link=1233890161/13#13 date=1234094493]
c) 8...Nf8 is possible, but now White is up two full tempi compared to the 5.e4 Be7 6.g3 Nbd7 7.h4 Nf8 Czech Benoni - no ...c5 and Nf3 included for White. This has to give him an advantage, e.g. 9.Bh3 Bh3 10.Rh3 N8d7 11.h5 and even though the computer claims equality, I think White is better due to his extra space and slightly more active pieces.
[/quote]
I wonder. The extra ...c5 in the Czech Benoni means no ...c6, and the extra Nf3 means the f-pawn is blocked. 9.Bh3 Bxh3 10.Rxh3 N8d7 11.h5 c6 and I think Black is doing well enough here.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #20 - 12/31/10 at 08:02:41
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A couple of years on it looks like there hasn't been much action in this theoretical backwater -- what a surprise! Taking another look at some of the above lines, my attention fell on 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 d6 3 c4 Nc6 4 Nc3 e5 5 d5 Ne7 6 e4 Ng6 7 g3 Be7 8 h4 Nf8 9 Bh3 Bh3 10 Rh3 Qc8 11 Rh1 N8d7 12 h5, when TN gives [u]12 ...h6[/u] 13 Nh4 Nc5 14 Qe2! as good for White. Instead of 12 ...h6, I've a dim memory of having looked at and rejected the obvious [u]12 ...Nc5[/u], but I can't now see why. Is h5-h6 really a threat? How about 12 ...Nc5 13 Qe2 a5, meeting 14 h6 with 14 ...g6 and then ...0-0? Engines seem to think this is reasonable, but then it's a very unengineish position, so to say ...
  
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