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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4 (Read 33956 times)
chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #49 - 08/14/13 at 15:59:29
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I wonder how can black play tango if white plays catalan and plays c4 after castling?? Is tango possible??
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #48 - 01/29/11 at 22:55:43
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linksspringer wrote on 01/04/11 at 10:12:04:
(1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 Nf8 9.Be2 Nfd7 10.Be3)
Regarding 10...Ng4 11 Bd2, I was reasoning that after something like 11...0-0 12.h5 a5 13.Nh4 Ngf6 14.Be3 White achieves a nice setup anyway, but that rather begs the question if that is a problem for Black with light-squared bishops still on as you say. Perhaps Black is just fine here! I'm also just exploring!  Wink
10...c6 11.g4 Ne8 12.g5, I was thinking Black could play on the queenside with eg a5/Nc7/Na6/Ndc5/Bd7 and if White plays f4 at some point, then exf4 and f6.


This and what topandkas and Michael Ayton have given early and later on too is quite interesting. But what is g2-g3 about? Yeah I know, covering f4 keeping the Knight away. But is that really so threatening? Is White yet in such a bad shape that he has to take measures against the fifth Knight-jump? Are there no other say more normal ways to play?
To be clear: to me 7.g3 looks not bad but a bit artificial.
I have my doubts that normal chessplayers will walk this way.
What about simple 7.h3 first followed by Be3 and Nd2? And when Black rides the horse in, White is prepared to chase it away with g2-g3.
What is Black's plan? Will he allways resort to Be7 and Nf8? Grin
Of course there is the usual plan with h7-h6 and Nf6-h7 with Be7-g5 or something like that.
I admit that the closed center is a little plus in comparison with the classical old indian. But on the other hand Black rode his horse to g6 where it may have a future - or not.
  

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CraigEvans
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #47 - 01/26/11 at 08:05:33
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I think the reply I had looked at was 5...Na5 6.e3 [not sure there isn't better perhaps] Bd6!? [more active and allows ...Qe7 to pressurise b4] 7.b4 Nb7 8.Nc3 a5, when black seems to have reasonable play, e.g. 9.Rb1 [probably the wrong move positionally] Qe7! 10.Qb3 ed 11.cd ab 12.ab O-O with control of the open a-file and a quick ...c5 coming to break open the position.

I have a feeling that 6.Nc3 is more critical, intending 7.e4 and trying to cast doubt on the validity of ...Bd6, eg 6.Nc3 Bd6 7.e4 when black can try the dangerous 7...exd5 8.e5 [8.cxd5 O-O looks fine to me] Bxe5!? 9.Nxe5 Qe7 10.Qe2 d6 11.Nd3 dxc4 12.Qxe7+ Kxe7 13.Nb4 Nb3 14.Rb1 Bf5 with unbalanced play, or the more solid 7...Ng4 which certainly does give white his edge.

I've even toyed with 7...O-O 8.e5 Bxe5 9.Nxe5 exd5 10.Nf3 dxc4 giving black three pawns for the piece and some imteresting chances, though I doubt it is fully sound.

However, I'm not sure the line can be dismissed so quickly just on the strength of 5.d5 - black does have his resources!
  

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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #46 - 01/23/11 at 18:53:04
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CraigEvans wrote on 01/23/11 at 15:07:35:
Regarding the 4.a3 variation, when I came out of retirement last weekend at the 4NCL I faced this on the sunday against a 2200 player. I replied with the (apparent novelty, according to my databases) 4...b6, and obtained an interesting position:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 4.a3 b6!? 5.Nc3 Bb7 6.Bg5!? Ne7!? 7.Qc2 [logical, covering the e4 square] h6 8.Bh4 g5!? with sharp and combative play.

I in the end comfortably drew this and really should have played for the win. However, my opponent refrained from an early e4 which seems critical.

Has anyone seen this line before? How would people improve white's play to secure an edge? We felt that white's position is aesthetically better here but it doesn't really offer a great amount, and black always seems to have resources if the game becomes prematurely open...


I can't recommend 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.a3 Nc6 for Black. Simply 5.d5 Ne7 6.Nc3 Bb7 7.e4 is great for White, as is 5...Na5 6.e3 Be7 7.b4 Nb7 8.Nc3.
  

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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #45 - 01/23/11 at 15:07:35
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Regarding the 4.a3 variation, when I came out of retirement last weekend at the 4NCL I faced this on the sunday against a 2200 player. I replied with the (apparent novelty, according to my databases) 4...b6, and obtained an interesting position:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 4.a3 b6!? 5.Nc3 Bb7 6.Bg5!? Ne7!? 7.Qc2 [logical, covering the e4 square] h6 8.Bh4 g5!? with sharp and combative play.

I in the end comfortably drew this and really should have played for the win. However, my opponent refrained from an early e4 which seems critical.

Has anyone seen this line before? How would people improve white's play to secure an edge? We felt that white's position is aesthetically better here but it doesn't really offer a great amount, and black always seems to have resources if the game becomes prematurely open...
  

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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #44 - 01/11/11 at 13:48:14
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Just a quick heads-up. Based on what we've looked at recently I, for now, have concluded that the panther is very much alive. I think that Black is very much okay, and have therefore moved on to consider how to meet 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d5!? Would any of you care to share your 2 cents and join me in the discussion of this line? I am of course more than willing to go back and yet again analyze on the "real" Panther-vatiation but as long as I havent seen anything new for White I think that Black is very much ok thanks to a certain Hagesaether!

And yeah maybe we could also look at mr. Palliser's suggestion!? I have no litterature on this but Black, as always, seems to have some troubles to solve.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #43 - 01/04/11 at 17:31:16
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Yes, the prodigality with tempi is rather amazing (even if one can obviously rationalise it in various ways)! This might seem to suggest that White should try looking for an advantage in the 8 Bg2 variation, but it seems that here 8 ...0-0 9 0-0 (9 Nd2 Nd7!?) h6 has held up pretty well, and Black also has a decent score after 9 ...c6!? though the sample isn't large.

I guess 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 Nc6 3 Nf3 d6 4 Nc3 e5 5 g3!?, as recommended by Richard Palliser, is also critical (and complicated!). Here the last time I looked I thought 5 ...Bg4 and 5 ...ed merited attention as well as 5 ...Bf5. Of course, in the Old Indian move order Black has to contend with 4 d5!? as well, but even if that's dangerous, we 1 ...Nc6!! players might just bypass it completely ... Wink
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #42 - 01/04/11 at 16:30:56
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I like your suggestions. Delaying 0-0 a bit seems to work quite well, so I am going to retract 10.Be3 0-0 11.Nd2 c6.  Smiley
It is interesting to compare this with the Old-Indian, eg 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Nf3 e5 5.e4 Be7 6.Be2 0-0 7.d5 [better is 7.0-0]. In the Panther-version, Black has taken 5 (!) moves to get the knight from b8 to d7. On the other hand, should White really be happy with the extra g3/h4?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #41 - 01/04/11 at 13:25:59
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No I hadn't looked at either of these. Both your suggestions look v. interesting to me! (I suppose 10 Be3 Ng4 11 Bd2 a5!? 12 h5 Nc5 13 Nh4 Nf6 [u]14 Qc2[/u] is possible but Black castles and strongpoints the dark squares?) Meanwhile I remember that last night I'd thought 10 Be3 Ng4 11 Bd2 [u]c6[/u] looked OK after 12 h5 Qb6 or 12 0-0 Ngf6.

The invention (8 ...Nf8) of the young Norwegian computer programmer looks more and more interesting! I wonder what he thinks about it ...
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #40 - 01/04/11 at 13:03:49
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Btw, looking at 10...Ng4 I came across something interesting and dont think White's play is so simple. After 11.Bd2 I suggest 11...a5! 12.h5 Nc5 13.Nh4 Nf6 (Bg5!?) and now 14.Be3 is of course not possible and 14.Nf5 Bxf5 is very double-edged.
  
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topandkas
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #39 - 01/04/11 at 12:47:06
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Did anyone of you look at 9.Be2 Nfd7 10.Be3 a5 11.Nd2 Nc5?

I think this looks quite promising. If White plays 12.g4 then 12...h6! seems quite strong.

I am sightly more concerned about 12.Bxc5!? but White really needs to know what he's doing to play a move like this, otherwise he could simply end up worse.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #38 - 01/04/11 at 10:46:15
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Thanks for this. Will keep investigating ... These are tough positions! Undecided

Quick thought: 10...c6 11.g4 Ne8 12.g5 a5 and now 13 Bg4 looks logical? Can Black 'cause trouble' quickly enough (e.g. with ...Nc7/...b5?)?
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #37 - 01/04/11 at 10:12:04
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(1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 Nf8 9.Be2 Nfd7 10.Be3)
Regarding 10...Ng4 11 Bd2, I was reasoning that after something like 11...0-0 12.h5 a5 13.Nh4 Ngf6 14.Be3 White achieves a nice setup anyway, but that rather begs the question if that is a problem for Black with light-squared bishops still on as you say. Perhaps Black is just fine here! I'm also just exploring!  Wink
10...c6 11.g4 Ne8 12.g5, I was thinking Black could play on the queenside with eg a5/Nc7/Na6/Ndc5/Bd7 and if White plays f4 at some point, then exf4 and f6.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #36 - 01/04/11 at 09:46:32
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After 12 g4 Ne8 13 g5, I couldn't see where Black's play is going to come from, unless perhaps he is going to risk opening the g-file soon with ...f6 or ...f5. Is this the idea? My understanding of these positions is still pretty embryonic!

My thinking behind 11 ...Ng4 12 Bd2 was that although the Knight will be driven back, the manoeuvre will have interrupted White's smooth Be3+Nd2+g4 plan. Will take another look at all this.

  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #35 - 01/04/11 at 09:22:53
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I had looked at 12.g4, but concluded that after 12...Ne8 White doesn't have the promising f4 plan as in Rohde-Hagesaether. I also looked at 11...Ng4, but what is the knight doing there after 12.Bd2? It will have to retreat at some point.
But perhaps you're right that Black can allow h5/Nh4/Nf5. I didn't like it, but I'll have another look.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #34 - 01/03/11 at 22:16:26
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Quote:
8.h4 Nf8 9.Be2 Nfd7 10.Be3 0-0 11.Nd2 (Rohde-Hagesaether) and here perhaps 11...c6 again.

How do you meet 12 g4? I haven't yet seen a good way to deal with White's space advantage. But shouldn't Black just have played 10 ...Ng4?

In Portisch-Hagesaether I wonder if Black can just castle and hope to weather h5/Nh4/Nf5 stuff because the light-squared Bishops won't get exchanged as after Bh3, but really I'm at the very beginning (as you probably realise!) of trying to understand these rather interesting positions.
« Last Edit: 01/03/11 at 23:18:18 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #33 - 01/03/11 at 17:55:10
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Btw, I dont like ...c7-c5 in these kind of positions. Maybe this is a matter of preference but in general I have more faith in ...c7-c6.
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #32 - 01/03/11 at 17:41:56
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Apart from the fact that I still think that 7.h4 is slightly more accurate than 7.g3, Linksspringer's suggested lines look pretty decent to me. I too think that Black is actually doing quite okay in these lines so if the is this most dangerous way to meet the Panther then I will seriously consider taking it in as part of my repertoire. Compared to a standard KID (or a Czech Benoni) I dont think Black is doing any worse.
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #31 - 01/03/11 at 17:05:10
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(1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 7.g3 Be7)
I suggest:
8.Be2 c6 9.h4 cxd5 10.cxd5 Nf8 or
8.h4 Nf8 9.Be2 Nfd7 10.Be3 0-0 11.Nd2 (Rohde-Hagesaether) and here perhaps 11...c6 again.
I am avoiding 8.Be2 c6 9.h4 Nf8 10.c5 or 8.h4 Nf8 9.Be2 c6 10.c5 (maybe not deadly, but still annoying).
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #30 - 01/03/11 at 15:03:15
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These sound like very sensible judgements to me.

Black doesn't look to be too badly off in the 8 ...Nf8!? 9 Bh3 line, so next step I think may be to take a look at Rohde-Hagesaether (9 Be2) and Portisch-Hagesaether (8 Be2!? c5!? 9 h4), though the first of these was a blitz game and ended after an awful blunder by Black. Would love to hear/share opinions about these.
  
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topandkas
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #29 - 01/02/11 at 09:45:40
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I still haven't had a thorough look at the positions arising after 6...Nd7 but I must say I like it less and less. Not so much because of 7.h4 (which btw may be a decent try as well) but mainly because of 7.Be3 and even 7.g4!? Im not sure about the ladder but 7.Be3 certainly feels right. The bishop no longer has to worry about ...Ng4 ideas and also supports a quick c4-c5 thrust which must be a critical test to Blacks setup with knights stuck on d7 and e7.

One should also note, that having both kings in the center almost unvariably favors White, because his space advantage allows him to more freely coordinate actions on both flanks whereas Black does better to just castle and quickly focus his attention on one of the flanks (usually the kingside but not necessarily).
In this opening, I can hardly think of any likely scenarios in which Black can seriously consider ...0-0-0 nor just leaving his king in the center, whereas White may choose either of the three options. Therefore, Black does better to just quickly castle and start playing on one of the flanks.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #28 - 01/01/11 at 17:48:16
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Quote:
So my point is just that 7.h4 opens up to more pitfalls for the Black player, although if the Black player knows/sees the plan ...Be7 followed by ...Nf8 then this is just a transpositional matter.

Yes, good point!

Quote:
On another note, I couldnt help wonder how White is supposed to punish:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.e4 d6 6.Nf3 Nd7!?

If Black doesnt trust the Panther variation isnt this just a viable way for Black to reach a KID?

I thought of this a while ago, but then I saw the game Hillarp Persson-Reijneveld which White won after 7 h4!?. (White has also tried 7 Be3 and 7 Bd3 here.) I didn't look closely so I don't know if this is a refutation or not, but I suspected the head-for-KID plan might be dubious when White hasn't played 0-0. Then again, Black hasn't castled either so maybe this is worth a look? -- what do you reckon?

  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #27 - 01/01/11 at 14:56:21
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Yeah, you are probably right h5-h6 is very double-edged. But I just thought that h4 is more forcing (and thus more precise?) as all other moves than 7...Be7 seem to be bad. My idea was to tempt Black to play Bg4/h6/h5 neither of which I think are very strong. One should also note that conceptionally it may be harder for the Black player to correctly forsee and evaluate 7...Be7 followed by 8...Nf8. If White plays 7.g3 then 7...Be7 is by far the most logical response and after 8.h4 then 8...Nf8 is somewhat easier to find and evaluate. So my point is just that 7.h4 opens up to more pitfalls for the Black player, although if the Black player knows/sees the plan ...Be7 followed by ...Nf8 then this is just a transpositional matter.


On another note, I couldnt help wonder how White is supposed to punish:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.e4 d6 6.Nf3 Nd7!?

If Black doesnt trust the Panther variation isnt this just a viable way for Black to reach a KID?
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #26 - 01/01/11 at 14:12:02
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[quote]Correct me if Im wrong but isnt 7.h4 just an improvement over 7.g3 ? [/quote]
Why should this be? After 7 ...Be7 I presume the plan is 8 h5 Nf8, but are you going to go h5-h6? Here I must defer to the judgement of stronger players, but my feeling is that this is often not a strong threat. The main strategic purpose of h4-h5 may be Nh4-f5, but doesn't this lose in strength if Black hasn't been forced into ...h6? Meanwhile if White goes h4-h5 then doesn't find a terribly strong plan Black may get in the standard ...Be7-g5, as in Touzane-Hagesaether.
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #25 - 01/01/11 at 12:55:29
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Correct me if Im wrong but isnt 7.h4 just an improvement over 7.g3 ?
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #24 - 12/31/10 at 18:22:10
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I think the 'Panther' is still a very fruitful field for research, whatever the future verdict! I was surprised to find that 8 ...Nf8 is so rare: only three games in my databases, all with the same Black player -- it deserves to be called the Hagesaether Variation! Interesting that Rohde forsook 9 Bh3 in favour of [u]9 Be2[/u]; and that Portisch also beat H. with 7 g3 Be7 [u]8 Be2[/u], when H chose, with 8 ...c5 (8 ...c6!?, 8 ...0-0!?), to transpose to a not-too-common Czech Benoni line (6 Nf3 Nbd7 7 Be2 Nf8 8 g3!? Ng6).
« Last Edit: 01/01/11 at 13:11:13 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #23 - 12/31/10 at 15:35:03
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OK, I see what you mean.  Wink
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 Nf8 9.Bh3 Bxh3 10.Rxh3 N8d7  11.h5 c6)
Yes, 12.Nh4 g6 13.hxg6 hxg6 followed by cxd5 or 12...cxd5 first.
Or 12.h6 g6 followed by ...cxd5.
Black gets the c-file and White's pieces are starting to look a bit uncoordinated to me.
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #22 - 12/31/10 at 14:35:27
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The point of 10 ...Qc8 is to reach the Eperjesi-Hagesaether line with 10 h5! Nc5 11 Bc8 Qc8 12 Qe2 a5!? one move nearer the time control. Cheesy

But seriously, I see what you mean, even though messing around a bit with engines I thought Black got some play, possibly (after h6/...g6) with a medium-term ...Ng4 or ...Ne8 and ...f5, while if (if!) White castles queenside there's ...a4 and ...Ra6/...Rb6.

As regards the two tempi, I was thinking exactly the same! Tempi surely ain't the point here. Maybe this position can join other cases, such as the Smyslov QGA, as an example of how in certain circumstances Black can be tempo-prodigal without White getting a definite gain from it? On first blush I like 11 ...c6. Presumably the immediate 12 Nh4 will be met by just 12 ...g6, not fearing 13 hg?

  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #21 - 12/31/10 at 12:43:36
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[quote author=2122282E4F0 link=1233890161/20#20 date=1293782561]A couple of years on it looks like there hasn't been much action in this theoretical backwater -- what a surprise! Taking another look at some of the above lines, my attention fell on 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 d6 3 c4 Nc6 4 Nc3 e5 5 d5 Ne7 6 e4 Ng6 7 g3 Be7 8 h4 Nf8 9 Bh3 Bh3 10 Rh3 Qc8 11 Rh1 N8d7 12 h5, when TN gives [u]12 ...h6[/u] 13 Nh4 Nc5 14 Qe2! as good for White. Instead of 12 ...h6, I've a dim memory of having looked at and rejected the obvious [u]12 ...Nc5[/u], but I can't now see why. Is h5-h6 really a threat? How about 12 ...Nc5 13 Qe2 a5, meeting 14 h6 with 14 ...g6 and then ...0-0? Engines seem to think this is reasonable, but then it's a very unengineish position, so to say ...[/quote]
Interesting, but it still seems like Black doesn't have much play and White has a lot of time to rearrange his pieces. White still looks better.
Going back a bit, I don't really understand the purpose of 10...Qc8. I notice that TN wrote earlier:
[quote author=407C71446671677160677B7226252424140 link=1233890161/13#13 date=1234094493]
c) 8...Nf8 is possible, but now White is up two full tempi compared to the 5.e4 Be7 6.g3 Nbd7 7.h4 Nf8 Czech Benoni - no ...c5 and Nf3 included for White. This has to give him an advantage, e.g. 9.Bh3 Bh3 10.Rh3 N8d7 11.h5 and even though the computer claims equality, I think White is better due to his extra space and slightly more active pieces.
[/quote]
I wonder. The extra ...c5 in the Czech Benoni means no ...c6, and the extra Nf3 means the f-pawn is blocked. 9.Bh3 Bxh3 10.Rxh3 N8d7 11.h5 c6 and I think Black is doing well enough here.
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #20 - 12/31/10 at 08:02:41
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A couple of years on it looks like there hasn't been much action in this theoretical backwater -- what a surprise! Taking another look at some of the above lines, my attention fell on 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 d6 3 c4 Nc6 4 Nc3 e5 5 d5 Ne7 6 e4 Ng6 7 g3 Be7 8 h4 Nf8 9 Bh3 Bh3 10 Rh3 Qc8 11 Rh1 N8d7 12 h5, when TN gives [u]12 ...h6[/u] 13 Nh4 Nc5 14 Qe2! as good for White. Instead of 12 ...h6, I've a dim memory of having looked at and rejected the obvious [u]12 ...Nc5[/u], but I can't now see why. Is h5-h6 really a threat? How about 12 ...Nc5 13 Qe2 a5, meeting 14 h6 with 14 ...g6 and then ...0-0? Engines seem to think this is reasonable, but then it's a very unengineish position, so to say ...
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #19 - 02/10/09 at 11:24:46
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@ urusov. I see your thinking, which I agree makes good sense in terms of your own repertoire choices. (I think that's maybe the key, rather than what involves one in less work [i]per se[/i] -- the KID in any form is surely labour-intensive in that respect!) I don't myself like 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5!, btw. I spent some time last year looking at Mestrovic's 2 ...Nb8!?, before (surprise, surprise) concluding White should get an edge (though the system is certainly playable!). Incidentally, re the Nimzo line 1 e4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4, linkspringer on another thread has made, I think, a very convincing case for 3 ...g6!.

@ TN. Masterful stuff -- thanks for looking at this. Looking at these dismal lines I'm beginning to wonder if the best defence mightn't be 9 ...Bh3 10 Rh3 Qc8 11 Rh1 h5 despite the weakening of g5! Maybe Black can borrow an idea from the Czech Benoni and just castle, e.g. something like 12 Qe2 N8d7 13 Kf1 0-0 14 Kg2 Ng4 15 Ng5 c6. White presumably has some advantage but is it all that easy for him to find a convincing plan? -- if he goes for the queenside maybe Black can bolster with manoeuvres like ...Bd8/ ...Bb6/ ...Qc7, and if he goes for f2--f4 there'll be counterplay with ...ef and ...Re8. Probably I'm being far too optimistic! ...

Apart from its intrinsic probable greater soundness, one other reason I guess for a Tango player preferring 3 ...e6 is the pleasure of playing the KID-related 4 a3 d6 5 Nc3 g6 set-up. Hence I found myself looking at the Zurich again, in particular the 6 Bg5 line but with 9 ...a5!?. I've posted here in the Nimzo/QID forum if you or anyone else fancies looking at this.






  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #18 - 02/10/09 at 06:22:53
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[quote author=nmga link=1233890161/0#14 date=1234138710]Thanks for this! -- looks like great stuff, but I've only had time for a dead-quick look 'cos I've had to work today, and on a Sunday, grrr!

A couple of quick thoughts re your (3):

(1)
[Event "Budapest FS04 IM"]
[Site "Budapest"]
[Date "1998.04.04"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Eperjesi,Laszlo"]
[Black "Hagesaether,Halvard"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "A54"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 Nf8 9.Bh3 N8d7 [more thematic/Czech Benoni-ish?] 10.Be3 0-0 11.Kf1 Nb6 12.Nd2 Bxh3+ 13.Rxh3 Qd7 14.Kg2 Ng4 15.Qe2 f5 16.Bxb6 axb6 17.f3 Nh6 18.Rhh1 Rf7 19.Raf1 Raf8 20.exf5 Nxf5 21.Qd3 g5 22.h5 g4 23.fxg4 Nh6 24.Rxf7 Rxf7 25.g5 Bxg5 26.Nde4 Qe7 27.Nxg5 Qxg5 28.Ne4 Qg4 29.Rh4 Qf5 30.Qe2 Kh8 31.Nc3 Qg5 32.Ne4 Qf5 1/2

(2)
9 ...Bh3 10 Rh3 Qc8 11 Rh1 N8d7 12 h5 h6, e.g. (i) 13 Nh4 Nc5 14 Nf5 Nce4 15 Ng7 Kf8 16 Ne4 Ne4 =; (ii) 13 Kf1 Nc5 14 Qe2 Qg4 15 Rh4 Qd7 16 Be3 Na4; (iii) 13 Be3 Ng4 14 Bd2 Nc5 (14 ...Nb6!?). I'm sure there are duff moves here since these are cursory thoughts but they might be a basis for better exploration?
[/quote]

Your suggestions (particularly the second) are quite interesting, but I feel that White retains the advantage here as well.

In the cited game with 9...N8d7, White can improve as early as move 10 with 10.h5! Nc5 (10...h6 11.Nh4 Nc5 is similar; 11...0-0 is possible but I can't see much counterplay for Black because White has a firm grip on the f5-outpost) 11.Bc8 Qc8 12.Qe2 h6 (allowing h6 does not seem to be a wise idea to me, and 12...Qg4 13.Nd2 Qe2 14.Ke2 is a passive ending for Black) 13.Nh4 and I think White has a comfortable advantage, as Black's c5-knight can be ousted with b4 at some point, and the f5-square is a nice outpost for a knight at some stage. Black can try ...c6 to create counterplay, but I don't really believe in it.

Your 10...Qc8 idea looks like an improvement, however - it makes sense to gain a tempo on the rook first. Even so, White still has the advantage: 11.Rh1 N8d7 (11...h5 weakens the g5-square too much) 12.h5 h6 13.Nh4 (I agree that 13.Be3 Ng4 is just fine for Black, and 13.Kf1 Nc5 14.Qe2 a5 also looks okay for Black; I prefer this to 14...Qg4 in order to retain the c5-square for the knight.

Returning to 13.Nh4 Nc5, instead of the dubious 14.Nf5, I think the simple 14.Qe2 is superior: White retains his grip on the light squares and can play Nf5 on the next move. Now I like 14...a5 best of all, as 14...Qd7 15.Nf5 0-0 16.f3 is very poor for Black, and the endgame with 14...Qg4 15.Nf5 Qe2 16.Ke2 Nfe4 17.Ne4 Ne4 18.f3! Ng5 19.Ng7 Kd7 20.Nf5, when White has a comfortable advantage owing to his superior minor pieces.

After 14...a5, best is 15.Bd2!, exploiting the fact that Black doesn't have a particularly useful move here until White plays Nf5. 15...Qd7 (15...Rg8 16.Ng2!? or 16.Nf3 seems somewhat better for White) 16.Kf1 (16.Nf5 Nce4 17.Ng7 Kf8 18.Ne4 Kg7 19.Bc3 is possible but I don't see why Black should be any worse here) 16...0-0 17.Nf5 c6 and I think White has the advantage because of his extra space and superior minor pieces. Fritz quite likes the idea of 18.g4 followed by either a kingside attack or playing on the queenside.
  

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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #17 - 02/09/09 at 20:42:12
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[quote author=nmga link=1233890161/15#16 date=1234171749]why, after 2 Nf3, does 2 ...g6 get [!], when after instead 2 ...e6 3 c4 you could have played 3 ...Nc6 which your upholding of 2 c4 Nc6 [3 Nf3 e6] implies you're happy with anyway!?[/quote]

If you play 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 then you will have to prepare for a bunch of things other than 3.c4, including 3.g3 when you are basically committed to a Catalan or a Queen's Indian (unless you want to lose a tempo with ..d6 or something).  White can also play 3.e3 (going Colle / Zukertort), 3.Bg5 (Torre-Tromp), even 3.b3!?  I'd sooner play for a King's Indian formation, where the Tango against 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 helps me avoid some annoying lines (hence the exclam).  In general, I want to get in ...e5 as Black whenever possible, so 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 does not appeal to me.

If you want to play the Panther, that's great, but you may be better off playing 1.d4 Nc6 when White seems to have fewer well-developed options than he does after 1.d4 Nf6 -- when most of my games seem to end up going into irregular alternatives like the Barry Attack or Trompowsky Attack.  With 1.d4 Nc6 you can avoid all that well-analyzed crap.  I played it that way when I also played the Nimzovich Defense (1.e4 Nc6) so it was a universal solution and the Panther seemed structurally more related to the ...e5 positions I liked (e.g.: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5)  than did the Chigorin.  But now I am playing 1.e4 e5 as Black and don't want to get into Nimzovich Defense discussions (via, for instance, 1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.e4!)  By 1.d4 Nc6, you generally reach the main Tango stuff indirectly, while giving White fewer options, e.g.: 1.d4 Nc6 2.c4 e5! 3.d5 Ne7 4.e4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Ng6 and you never even had to deal with the Nimzo-Indian lines that you don't like.
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #16 - 02/09/09 at 09:29:09
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I'm not sure I follow your logic, urusov. If you're saying that it's better for Black to risk the Matveeva--Stevens Zurich line than play the Panther I can understand that point of view. But it's nevertheless a bit dismal for Black, isn't it, so why after 2 c4 does 2 ...Nc6 deserve an exclamation mark? More importantly, why, after 2 Nf3, does 2 ...g6 get one, when after instead 2 ...e6 3 c4 you could have played 3 ...Nc6 which your upholding of 2 c4 Nc6 [3 Nf3 e6] implies you're happy with anyway!?
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #15 - 02/09/09 at 02:58:36
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I am no longer a big fan of the Panther, by the way, though I still play it occasionally and enjoy its complexity.  Lately I'd recommend combining the Tango repertoire laid out by Palliser and Orlov (with the Zurich Nimzo-Indian, some Bogo-Indian, and Bologan's KID ideas vs. Nf3 and a3) with a KID repertoire built around lines where White plays Nf3 (which allows you to avoid Saemish and Four Pawns headaches).  Basically you just need the Tango repertoire, Classical KID, Fianchetto lines (with white Nf3 and g3), and some KID sidelines.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6!
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6!

Now if only someone could tell me how best to deal with Trompowsky, Barry Attack, and Veresov stuff as a Tango / KID player, I'd have the whole repertoire worked out.... Smiley
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #14 - 02/09/09 at 00:18:30
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Thanks for this! -- looks like great stuff, but I've only had time for a dead-quick look 'cos I've had to work today, and on a Sunday, grrr!

A couple of quick thoughts re your (3):

(1)
[Event "Budapest FS04 IM"]
[Site "Budapest"]
[Date "1998.04.04"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Eperjesi,Laszlo"]
[Black "Hagesaether,Halvard"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "A54"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 Nc6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 Nf8 9.Bh3 N8d7 [more thematic/Czech Benoni-ish?] 10.Be3 0-0 11.Kf1 Nb6 12.Nd2 Bxh3+ 13.Rxh3 Qd7 14.Kg2 Ng4 15.Qe2 f5 16.Bxb6 axb6 17.f3 Nh6 18.Rhh1 Rf7 19.Raf1 Raf8 20.exf5 Nxf5 21.Qd3 g5 22.h5 g4 23.fxg4 Nh6 24.Rxf7 Rxf7 25.g5 Bxg5 26.Nde4 Qe7 27.Nxg5 Qxg5 28.Ne4 Qg4 29.Rh4 Qf5 30.Qe2 Kh8 31.Nc3 Qg5 32.Ne4 Qf5 1/2

(2)
9 ...Bh3 10 Rh3 Qc8 11 Rh1 N8d7 12 h5 h6, e.g. (i) 13 Nh4 Nc5 14 Nf5 Nce4 15 Ng7 Kf8 16 Ne4 Ne4 =; (ii) 13 Kf1 Nc5 14 Qe2 Qg4 15 Rh4 Qd7 16 Be3 Na4; (iii) 13 Be3 Ng4 14 Bd2 Nc5 (14 ...Nb6!?). I'm sure there are duff moves here since these are cursory thoughts but they might be a basis for better exploration?
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #13 - 02/08/09 at 12:01:33
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Thanks for the link to the thread & Goeller's site - I knew that there was an old thread on this line but couldn't find it.

I looked through the thread and Goeller's survey on the Panther, but I'm still not convinced by it objectively. However, as shown by the articles on this line, if White doesn't know of this line then Black can probably get away with it.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 (After 4.d5 Ne5 5.Ne5 de5, 6.g3 may be more precise than 6.e4, but Black seems to be okay here as well) 4...e5 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 Ng6 (6...g6 7.c5 is better for White as shown earlier in this thread) and now I think 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 is better for White.

Addressing 7.g3 Be7 8.h4 first:
a) 8...Bg4 9.Bh3 is simply better for White as it is difficult for Black to create active play.
b) 8...0-0 9.h5 Nh8 10.Bh3 is also just better for White, as shown by Goeller. White will then play Nh4 and leave Black with no kingside counterplay. Compare with 6.g3 Be7 7.h4! against the Czech Benoni.
c) 8...Nf8 is possible, but now White is up two full tempi compared to the 5.e4 Be7 6.g3 Nbd7 7.h4 Nf8 Czech Benoni - no ...c5 and Nf3 included for White. This has to give him an advantage, e.g. 9.Bh3 Bh3 10.Rh3 N8d7 11.h5 and even though the computer claims equality, I think White is better due to his extra space and slightly more active pieces.
d) 8...h6 9.h5 Nf8 10.Nh4 N6d7 is claimed to be unclear by Goeller, but this looks like a somewhat lazy assessment, since after 11.Bh3 Bh4 12.Bc8 Qc8 13.Rh4 White just seems better to me - the h7-knight is misplaced.
  

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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #12 - 02/08/09 at 10:11:34
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I see what you mean, TN, and I agree with kylemeister that the pseudo-KID allowing c5 and Bb5 is unappealing for Black. Relative disadvantages apart, I guess one reason I’m still drawn to the Panther (at my humble club level) is that play might be more strategically complex – I feel I might have more practical chances to create interesting counterplay, in positions less familiar to my opponents, than when I’m being pressured in the Zurich Nimzo line with 0-0-0. And, though I make no particular claims for it, I’m heartened that Black seems to have found some new ideas/plans in the Panther in recent years.

I hope I’ll be forgiven for quoting (below) an old post of mine on the subject – obviously, all comments most welcome! Page 2 of this thread -- http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1201973602/0 --, with stuff on both the Tango and the Panther, might also be of interest, including to saubikhr, who I hope might tell us how he likes to handle the Zurich? …

*****

The Panther: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 Nc6 3 Nf3 d6!?

I couldnt resist! Having had a look at urusovs sites on this (see http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2006/02/panther-part-one.html) I thought Id start a separate thread on this interesting system.

As Uberdeker pointed out in another thread, it’s essentially an Old Indian with ...Nc6. It can be reached via a number of move orders, however (for which see Urusov’s site). I chose the order above just for ease of setting out the main variations, since White has a number of fourth-move choices here. Also, this move order might suit a Tango player looking for an alternative to a Zurich Nimzo-Indian after 3 Nf3.

Urusov quotes Richard Palliser as recommending 4 d5 Ne5 5 Ne5 de 6 g3 as conferring a small edge. I notice, however, that the young Ukrainian GM Miroshnichenko hasnt been afraid to try this for Black, and has done OK after 6 ...e6 7 Bg2 ed (7 ...Bb4!?) 8 cd Bd6 9 0-0 0-0 10 Nc3 h6 or 10 ...a6. The other non-main line Richard mentions is 4 Nc3 e5 (the point) 5 g3. Here Urusov seems to recommend 5 ...Bf5!?. I notice also that another Panther devotee, Slapikas, has played 5 ...Bg4!?, and that Larsen has played 5 ...ed 6 Nd4 Bd7, which might reach A15, A25 or E60 positions!

The main line though must be 4 Nc3 e5 5 d5 Ne7 6 e4 Ng6 (on 6 ...g6, aiming for a KID, White can try 7 c5!? which Urusov thinks is unclear after 7 ...Bg7 8 Bb5 Bd7 [though I don’t myself see the attraction for Black]) 7 g3 Be7. Here White has two lines:

(1) 8 Bg2 0-0 (Urusov also mentions 8 ...c5!? though Black has done very poorly with this) 9 0-0, and now praxis has seen (a) 9 ...c6 playing on the Queenside, (b) 9 ...Ne8 intending a quick ...f5 and (c) the newer 9 ...h6!?, intending ...Nh7 and ...Bg5 (and/or ...f5).

(2) 8 h4!? h6 (8 ...Nf8!? [I prefer this – see the other thread]) and now 9 Bh3, 9 Qc2, and 9 h5!? Nf8 10 Nh4 N6h7 have all been played or suggested.

As a Tango player, I’ve been aware of the traditional wisdom that ...Ng6 plans aren’t so good if White can play g2--g3, but the Panther aims to prove this wrong. Does it succeed? Anyone got any thoughts on the variations above, or others?
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #11 - 02/08/09 at 00:26:05
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Regarding the Panther (a new term for me), I would have thought that the main objection to 6...g6 (vis-a-vis the regular KID) is that White can quickly get in c5.
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #10 - 02/08/09 at 00:21:26
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@TN

Good to know that you used to play Tango. Too bad that you gave up.

Do you still play from time to time or not at all ? Please share some games of yours.
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #9 - 02/07/09 at 23:49:13
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@Michael Ayton

I tend to agree with you, although given the choice between the Zurich and the Panther, I would probably play the Zurich.

In the Panther (I assume you are referring to the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 d6), White seems to gain a slight advantage quite easily with 4.Nc3 e5 (I don't trust 4...Bg4 at all after 5.d5 Ne5 6.Ne5 Ne5 7.Qb3) 5.d5 Ne7 6.e4 with either an improved Tango for White after 6...Ng6 because Black can't develop his king's bishop actively to c5 or b4, or an improved King's Indian after 6...g6 because Black's e7-knight is misplaced, and a kingside attack with ...f5-f4 is not as effective because White is not committed to castling.

I prefer 4.Nc3 followed by d5 to the immediate 4.d5, as after 4...Ne5 (I don't trust 4...Nb8) 5.Ne5 de5 6.Nc3 e6 Black's position seems perfectly playable in spite of White's extra space.

I think objectively the Zurich is still a little bit better than the Panther, since (in my opinion) White has to display more precision in the Zurich than in the Panther to obtain a stable advantage.

However, I will admit that I eventually gave up the Tango because of being forced into the dubious Zurich Variation.
  

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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #8 - 02/07/09 at 22:54:15
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[quote]There is a line in the Khalifman book (Ofwat~Kramnik Vo. 2) that may have contributed to this perspective.[/quote]
I suspect what may have contributed most was saubhikr's perhaps slightly hyper anxiety about having every Tango base covered! Like others, I had no thought that 4 a3 was a bust. I'm intrigued though by your happiness with the Zurich Nimzo, saubhikr. Personally I find the lines TN gives rather dismal for Black and, surprisingly perhaps, for now I'd rather take my chances in a 'Panther' (Old Indian with arguably premature ...Nc6)! How do you like to handle Black's position in the Zurich?
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #7 - 02/07/09 at 19:50:11
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kylemeister wrote on 02/07/09 at 19:12:40:
I wonder who claimed 4. a3 to be a bust (implausible though such a claim may be); as far as I recall, I've only seen it claimed to lead to a slight advantage (including against that ...d6 and ...g6 stuff).



There is a line in the Khalifman book (Ofwat~Kramnik Vo. 2) that may have contributed to this perspective.  The anti-Tango 4.a3 can be tricky for Black as White has a free hand with regard to which system he wishes to employ, but Black gets playable positions in all lines.  White can probably keep a slight to nagging advantage, but it is hardly a "refutation." 


  

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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #6 - 02/07/09 at 19:12:40
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I wonder who claimed 4. a3 to be a bust (implausible though such a claim may be); as far as I recall, I've only seen it claimed to lead to a slight advantage (including against that ...d6 and ...g6 stuff).
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #5 - 02/07/09 at 18:23:17
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saubhikr wrote on 02/07/09 at 17:24:00:
I am fine with Zurich on the black side. Main worry is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 4.a3

Does this bust Tango ?



No.  Play 4. ...d6 5. Nc3 g6 and go into KID as shown in Palliser book.
  

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saubhikr
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #4 - 02/07/09 at 17:24:00
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I am fine with Zurich on the black side. Main worry is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 4.a3

Does this bust Tango ?
  
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TN
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #3 - 02/07/09 at 00:05:25
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kylemeister wrote on 02/06/09 at 23:24:00:
The question, presumably, is whether "very effective," "advantageous" and "better" signify something more than the "+=" which has long been generally held to apply to that Zurich stuff.


They don't. But it's (in my opinion) more effective than 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.g3/e4 or 3.Nf3 e6 4.a3, the latter of which was once considered a refutation of the Tango (it isn't).
  

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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #2 - 02/06/09 at 23:24:00
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The question, presumably, is whether "very effective," "advantageous" and "better" signify something more than the "+=" which has long been generally held to apply to that Zurich stuff.
  
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Re: Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
Reply #1 - 02/06/09 at 22:46:00
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Transposing to the Bogo-Indian with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 4.g3 Bb4 5.Bd2/Nbd2 is not forced; Black can instead reach a main line Catalan with 4...d5 if he follows up with 5...dc4.

No, one cannot rely solely on the Tango against 1.d4: 1...Nf6 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d5 is better for White, as is 2.Bg5 Nc6 3.Bf6 followed by e3, when the c6-knight seems misplaced. 3.d5!? also looks promising for White, since I don't trust either 3...Ne5 4.Nc3 or 3...Nb8 4.Bf6 ef6 5.g3.

However, most Tango advocates meet 2.Nf3 with 2...e6 and 2.Bg5 with one of the sharper lines, e.g. with a quick ...c5.

Regarding the current state of the Tango itself: It hasn't been 'busted' yet, but 3.Nf3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.Qc2 looks like a very effective antidote, e.g. 5...d6 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bd2 0-0 8.a3 Bc3 9.Bc3 (9...Qe7 10.e4 e5 11.d5 is advantageous for White as well) Re8 10.0-0-0 Qe7 11.h3 e5 12.de5 (12.d5!?) de5 13.e3 and White was better in Matveeva-C. Stevens, Guelph open 2005 (for detailed annotations I refer you to 'Challenging the Nimzo-Indian').

However, at 2000 level the majority of your opponents won't have prepared for the Tango or Zurich Variation, unless they have faced it recently or have studied Palliser/Vigorito.
  

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saubhikr
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Can I play Tango as main response to 1.d4
02/06/09 at 03:16:01
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I play Tango against 1.d4. Many times it goes to Bogo Indian if white plays Nf3. Just wanted to check if I can reply wholy on this reportoire or this has been busted.

Souvik
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