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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 2 knights tango (Read 14350 times)
saubhikr
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #23 - 05/24/09 at 02:47:10
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I have been playing (rather trying to play) Tango for over 3 yrs now (since I got the book by Palliser). My score is 100% so far with some good attacking games from blackside (average opposition is 1900+ rated). The problem is I played so far only 7 pure Tango game. White mostly play Nf3 at some point and the game moves to Bogo or Zurich. Frustrated, I started playing NID/QID/BID directly.
  
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moahunter
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #22 - 05/10/09 at 23:45:52
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I think the "problem" with the Tango isn't that it is "bad", just that it is very difficult. It's a d4 opening, but it requires learning:

1. Catalan
2. Kings Indian (off beat)
3. Bogo Indian / Nimzo Indian (off beat)
4. Tango lines (which are fun)
5. Trompowsky, etc.

A strong player who has played lots of d4 lines can probably do that, but for a regular club player, it is a tough ask to try and learn the concepts / middle games of such different types of pawn structures within one opening. You have to "suit" not only the Bogo/Nimzo, but the KID too (surely its easier to pick one, or the other?). A lot of time and effort to spend on a d4 solution, that isn't even that novel or surprising given how many people have Pallisers book. In other words, its ambitious, for better and worse.  Huh
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #21 - 03/30/09 at 16:24:23
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Yes, this is what I was meaning. I assumed also -- rightly or wrongly -- that 12 Qd4 Ng4 gave Black sufficient compensation.

In answer to Novosibirsk -- the Tango is a great weapon at my (middle to upper 'club') level, and I greatly enjoy playing it! I guess at GM level the potential snag may be that not everyone fancies defending the Zurich Nimzo. (There's been a bit of discussion of this recently in a thread on the Nimzo and Benonis forum, but it's yet to really hot up ...  Sad)
  
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Kgwm
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #20 - 03/30/09 at 16:09:46
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[quote] Of course I take the point! I was thinking only about 10 d5 Nd4 as a pawn sac, as mentioned above. Maybe it's unsound, but as a less strong player I wasn't so sure about this ...[/quote]

Hmm, actually now I think you might have a case. After 12.Bxd4, Black can play 12..Nxe4! 13.Nxe4 Qh4! where Black seems to equalize after the forcing continuation 14.Bxg7 Qxe4+.

But of course, this is not the way to go if Black wants to win...

Wei Ming
  
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #19 - 03/30/09 at 16:03:03
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Of course I take the point! I was thinking only about 10 d5 Nd4 as a pawn sac, as mentioned above. Maybe it's unsound, but as a less strong player I wasn't so sure about this ...[/quote]

Oops, sorry. I didn't understand your post. But how do you continue after 11.Nxd4 ed 12.Bd4? I don't think there is any compensation.

Wei Ming
  
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Novosibirsk
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #18 - 03/30/09 at 12:35:27
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"The Black knight´s Tango is not a bad opening at all"
Joh Cox in starting out :1.d4!  page 228.

"After years of practical experience,and having reviewed all the available material,I can confidently say that the Tango remains as playable as any opening line."
IM Georgi Orlov

Against the two most played white lines by GM:s Richard Palliser says in his Great book tango! :

"Niether of these,however, are the refutations they´ve sometimes been made out to be."
IM Richard Palliser in his book "tango!"

I also think Kasparov stated that there are "no bad" openings or something like that (I quess he didnt have openings like the Englund gambit in mind  Smiley  ).

Learn it and play it with confidence ! Its a dynamic and active opening.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #17 - 03/30/09 at 08:33:09
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[quote]After 12..Kh7 13.c5, Black is probably hard pressed to play 13..dc 14.dc Nd7 when White might have something after 15.Qc2 but nothing much.[/quote]

I guess I was thinking of 15 Bb5 here, attacking the queenside -- I wasn't sure about this but maybe 15 ...Ncb8 and ...c6 (poss. with ...Qe7 first) is OK?


[quote]9..e5?! is just dubious IMHO. Seems to me it's just a one-tempo down KID. After 10.d5 Ne7 11.Qd2 Kh7, White can play 12.g4! with a sizeable advantage ... the whole idea with the advance ...e5 should be continued with ...Nd4 whenever possible ...[/quote]

Of course I take the point! I was thinking only about 10 d5 Nd4 as a pawn sac, as mentioned above. Maybe it's unsound, but as a less strong player I wasn't so sure about this ...
  
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Kgwm
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #16 - 03/30/09 at 01:30:15
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[quote author=nmga link=1234578545/15#15 date=1238366130]Thanks again. I was thinking about 12 ...Kh7 13 c5, which looks strong to me -- but am I missing something?

I guess what made me wonder about 9 ...e5 was just that it's been successfully played against a GM (in the game Ramesh--Recuero, given on ChessLive). I'd be interested to know if you reckon White's play here can be improved on. I've no idea who Recuero is though -- I've noticed that a player isn't necessarily untitled just because ChessLive doesn't indicate he/she is![/quote]

After 12..Kh7 13.c5, Black is probably hard pressed to play 13..dc 14.dc Nd7 when White might have something after 15.Qc2 but nothing much.

9..e5?! is just dubious IMHO. Seems to me it's just a one-tempo down KID. After 10.d5 Ne7 11.Qd2 Kh7, White can play 12.g4! with a sizeable advantage.

I think the whole idea with the advance ...e5 should be continued with ...Nd4 whenever possible or else there is a risk of the position turning into some form of inferior KID. Not what we are looking for when we play 2..Nc6!  :D

Wei Ming
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #15 - 03/29/09 at 22:35:30
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Thanks again. I was thinking about 12 ...Kh7 13 c5, which looks strong to me -- but am I missing something?

I guess what made me wonder about 9 ...e5 was just that it's been successfully played against a GM (in the game Ramesh--Recuero, given on ChessLive). I'd be interested to know if you reckon White's play here can be improved on. I've no idea who Recuero is though* -- I've noticed that a player isn't necessarily untitled just because ChessLive doesn't indicate he/she is!


* I've since noticed that Recuero Guerra is a young Spanish IM -- there are several Tango games of his in the ChessLive database.
« Last Edit: 03/30/09 at 17:22:20 by Michael Ayton »  
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Kgwm
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #14 - 03/28/09 at 18:10:32
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[quote author=nmga link=1234578545/0#12 date=1238255097]Thanks very much for this, Wei Ming. It's great to have this endorsement of the Tango! (At the same time, I really ought to consult my sources before posting ...)

I was wondering whether, in your game, 13 c5 was dangerous? -- rightly or wrongly, that's what I'd have been afraid of. Academic in one sense I guess, in that 12 ...d5 is thought to be OK for Black. Also, what do you think of Black's ninth-move options? -- are they playable or is 9 ...Re8 clearly best?[/quote]

Sorry, to avoid confusion, I was referring to 12..d5 (instead of 12..Kh7 as played in my game) 13.c5 de4 and so on

Wei Ming
  
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #13 - 03/28/09 at 17:42:50
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[quote author=nmga link=1234578545/0#12 date=1238255097]
I was wondering whether, in your game, 13 c5 was dangerous? -- rightly or wrongly, that's what I'd have been afraid of. Academic in one sense I guess, in that 12 ...d5 is thought to be OK for Black. [/quote]

13.c5 is probably good for Black after 13..de4 14.Nxe4 Nd5. White risks his centre and queenside getting overextended while Black gets a nice square on d5. I can't really remember why I didn't play 12..d5 during the game. Maybe because 13.cd ed 14.e5 seems good enough for an edge?

As for alternatives on move 9, I'm not really sure how Black can obtain sufficient play without 9..Re8. The whole idea behind 9..Re8 is to play 10..e5 followed by 11..Nd4 (after 11.d5) and White prevents this by playing 10.Bd3! and 11.Be2! But in my opinion, 11..Nb6 (described as "sophisticated" by Chesspub) is the remaining lifeline in this variation.  :)

Wei Ming
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #12 - 03/28/09 at 15:44:57
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Thanks very much for this, Wei Ming. It's great to have this endorsement of the Tango! (At the same time, I really ought to consult my sources before posting ...)

I was wondering whether, in your game, 13 c5 was dangerous? -- rightly or wrongly, that's what I'd have been afraid of. Academic in one sense I guess, in that 12 ...d5 is thought to be OK for Black. Also, what do you think of Black's ninth-move options? -- are they playable or is 9 ...Re8 clearly best?
  
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #11 - 03/28/09 at 04:34:59
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[quote author=nmga link=1234578545/0#10 date=1238101161]Grrr, I foolishly assumed that the 11 Be2 idea was new rather than being in Richard Palliser's book, so spent an hour and a half working out for myself that 11 ...f5 12 0-0! (12 d5 Na5!? is less clear?) is good for White and that 11 ...e5 12 d5 Nd4 doesn't work (nor I [i]think[/i] does 10 ...e5). The book quotes as an alternative 9 ...Kh8 (idea ...Ng8 and ...f5), played in Wagner--Sulava. I wondered also if 9 ...e5 is any good -- now 10 d5 Nd4 11 Nd4 ed 12 Bd4 Ne4 seems to work, and I guess after 12 Qd4 Black has sufficient comp.?[/quote]

11.Be2 is indeed a strong move and has been played several times since the release of Richard's book. Chesspub vaguely recommended 11..Nb6 which I tested in the Dresden Olympiad:

[Event "38th Chess Olympiad"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.11.23"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Patrick Van Hoolandt"]
[Black "Goh Wei Ming"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E10"]
[WhiteElo "2231"]
[BlackElo "2420"]
[Annotator "Wei Ming"]
[PlyCount "114"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nf3 e6 4. a3 d6 5. Nc3 g6 6. e4 Bg7 7. h3 O-O 8. Bg5 h6
9. Be3 Re8 10. Bd3 (10. Be2 e5 11. d5 Nd4 12. Nxd4 exd4 13. Bxd4 Nxe4) 10...
Nd7 11. Be2 Nb6 (11..f5 12.d5! gives White a plus according to Chesspub. I see no reason to challenge that notion) 12. O-O Kh7 13. Re1 d5 14. b3 (14. exd5 exd5 15. c5 Nc4 16.
Bxc4 dxc4 17. Qa4 Be6 18. Rad1 Ne7) (14. cxd5 exd5 15. e5 Be6) 14... dxe4 15.
Nxe4 e5 16. dxe5 Nd7 17. e6 (17. Qc2 Ncxe5 18. Rad1 Qe7 19. Nd4 (19. b4) 19...
a6) 17... Rxe6 18. Neg5+ hxg5 19. Nxg5+ Kg8 20. Nxe6 fxe6 21. Ra2 Qe7 22. Qc2
Qf7 23. Rd1 Nf6 24. b4 e5 25. b5 Bf5 26. Qa4 (26. Bd3 e4 27. bxc6 exd3 28. cxb7
Rb8 29. Qb3 Be4) 26... Nd4 27. Bxd4 exd4 28. g4 (28. Rxd4 Ne4) 28... Be6 29.
Rxd4 Nd7 30. Rd1 Be5 31. Qc2 Nc5 32. Bf1 Kg7 33. Qc1 Rf8 34. Qe3 Qf4 35. Qxf4
Rxf4 36. Rc2 Rf3 37. Re1 Bd6 38. Re3 Rf4 39. a4 b6 40. a5 bxa5 41. Ra3 a4 42.
f3 g5 43. Kg2 Kf6 44. Be2 Rd4 45. Ra1 Bf4 46. Rh1 Rd2 47. Rxd2 Bxd2 48. Ra1 Bb4
49. f4 gxf4 50. h4 a3 51. g5+ Kg6 52. Ra2 Bf5 53. Kf3 Ne6 54. Bd1 Bd6 55. Kf2
Nd4 56. Ra1 Bc5 57. Kg2 Bd3 0-1

During the game, I had the feeling that White should be better but it is not easy to keep control. Overall, I think the Tango remains fully playable.

Wei Ming
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #10 - 03/26/09 at 20:59:21
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Grrr, I foolishly assumed that the 11 Be2 idea was new rather than being in Richard Palliser's book, so spent an hour and a half working out for myself that 11 ...f5 12 0-0! (12 d5 Na5!? is less clear?) is good for White and that 11 ...e5 12 d5 Nd4 doesn't work (nor I [i]think[/i] does 10 ...e5). The book quotes as an alternative 9 ...Kh8 (idea ...Ng8 and ...f5), played in Wagner--Sulava. I wondered also if 9 ...e5 is any good -- now 10 d5 Nd4 11 Nd4 ed 12 Bd4 Ne4 seems to work, and I guess after 12 Qd4 Black has sufficient comp.?
  
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Re: 2 knights tango
Reply #9 - 03/26/09 at 12:43:25
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Ptero wrote on 03/05/09 at 18:46:21:
4.a3 is a sensible system, but as stated in another thread, 4...d6 5.Nc3 g6 is best, and should offer Black equality with best play. This was Palliser's evaluation in his book 'Tango!' from 2005; compared to a 'normal' KID, White has the extra move a3, but the extra move ...e6 gives Black some extra options without ...e5. I tend to agree with Markovich here. I don't see how exactly black equalizes against 4.a3!?, nor do I find a statement to that effect in Palliser's book (which I own). After what IMHO is White's most accurate move order - 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 4.a3 d6 5.Nc3 g6 6.e4 Bg7 7.h3 0-0 8.Bg5 h6 9.Be3 Re8 10.Bd3! Nd7 11.Be2! Black's position appears slightly suspect to me.


Thanks, Ptero, for this very constructive analysis, which I will copy into my notes.  

Broadly, this looks like one of many suboptimal setups that Black could achieve by refusing to confront White's central build-up after 1.d4, 2.c4.
  

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