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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch (Read 22337 times)
Anders
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #35 - 03/04/10 at 20:28:56
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Stigma wrote on 01/28/10 at 16:30:04:
@Ametanoitos

I think you're taking 7...Nc6 a bit too seriously. Williams on his DVD only claims it's a good suprise weapon to catch out unprepared White players.

But variation-wise you're on the right track. The position after 13.Qxf5 is Williams' main line on the DVD, and he focuses on 13...Bc5 (14.Qh3; 14.b3) and 13...Ne4 intending ...Nxc3 and play against White's weakened queenside.


Hi.
14.b3! is given by Avrukh in Grandmaster Repertoire II.
He then follows a line given by Willliams concluding in the end that  "black has failed to obtain compensation for the pawn".

Regards / Anders

  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #34 - 03/04/10 at 19:45:18
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Antigoon wrote on 03/04/10 at 12:36:04:
Hello everybody just joined this wonderful site and noticed this message since I was Brabo's opponent in the mentioned game Smiley.

In the game after 1. c4  f5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. 0-0 Bd6 6. cxd5 cxd5 7. d3, 0-0 8. Nc3 Na6 9.e4 fxe4 10.dxe4 dxe4 11.Ng5 Nc5... I played the ridiculous 12.b4 and after 12...Be5 had to fight very hard for the draw, but the reason for the strange b4 was that over the board i had discovered that my prepared line 12.Ncxe4 Nfxe4 13.Nxe4 was not that great because although white does keep considerable pressure after 13...Nxe4 14.Bxe4 black does not have to oblige him and after a simple 13...Be7 14.Nxc5 Bxc5 15.Qxd8 Rxd8 16.Bg5 Rf8! (other squares land black in trouble) I concluded white advantage is very marginal since black will regroup with Bb6 and c6. My 12.b4? was disaster but I still dont see how white could really trouble the black position although after 8...Na6 9.Be3 white might be a that better.

Greetings from Antwerp, Stefan.

I find your chosen handle hilarious. I even showed it to my wife after which I had to explain the legend of Brabo and Antigoon.  Smiley

Concerning the game, below you can find some elaborated comments and analysis.

1.c4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 d5 5.0-0 Bd6 6.cxd5 cxd5 7.d3 0-0 8.Nc3 (In 2003 I once met 8.Bg5 but in my notes I already mentioned that 8.Nc3 is more critical.) Na6 (The move I recommended in my own analysis of 2003. Nc6 was discussed in 'Win with the stonewall Dutch' to which I cooperated but also then black can't solve all the problems.) 9.e4 (In my analysis of 2003 I also mentioned 9.Bg5 which isn't straightforward either. However e4 of course is the most direct test) fxe4 10.dxe4 dxe4 11.Ng5 Nc5 In 2003 I evaluated this as unclear so playable. Today with much stronger software and hardware the cards lay different. White has a couple of interesting and promising ideas :
A) 12.Ncxe4 Nfxe4 13.Nfxe4 Be7 14.Nxc5 (Bd2 is also a bit better for white.) Bxc5 15.Qxd8 Rxd8 16.Bg5 Rf8 17.Be3! and white still keeps some pressure because the regrouping via Bb6 and c6 isn't easy.
B) 12.Be3 (My favorite and already once played by the Serbian grandmaster Ivkov Borislav) Be7 (The English internation master Bellin Robert achieved a draw with Bg4 but after the improvement 13.Qd4 white would've had a clear advantage contrary to the chosen gamecontinuation) 13.Qc1 c6 14.Rd1 Qe8 15. Ncxe4 Ncxe4 16.Qc4+ Kh8 17.Nxe4 Nxe4 18.Bxe4 with a small but annoying advantage for white.

I concluded even if one can rehabilitate one variation there are still others laying in the sickbay so my advise is to stay away from the line.
  
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Schaakhamster
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #33 - 03/04/10 at 13:04:25
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Antigoon wrote on 03/04/10 at 12:36:04:
Quote:
Brabo wrote

A few months ago I encountered serious difficulties with the English in the line below which isn't mentioned in the book ' Win with the Stonewall Dutch':
1. c4, f5 2. Nf3, Nf6 3. g3, e6 4. Bg2, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. cd5:, cd5: 7. d3, 0-0 8. Nc3 += This moveorder avoids the dc4: lines which were in my opinion the last resort for black. The book covers 8.., Nc6 but mentions that black can't equalise with it. I played 8..., Na6 an old idea of my lab and although I came pretty close winning the game against my +2400 rated opponent, in theory it isn't good enough for equalty.

So this nasty surprise made me go back to my lab and have a long hard think about how to continue playing a Dutch against the English while keeping the link with the stonewall as close as possible because I am not really fond to switch to the classical Dutch which I always found shaky. The conclusion was that a Botvinnik stonewall (Be7) was still reasonable.
1. c4, f5 2. Nf3, Nf6 3. g3, e6 4. Bg2, Be7 5. 0-0, 0-0 6. d4, d5 (only now because otherwise white can skip d4 and swith to b3-d3 systems which aren't easy for black).

I've not been able to test this seriously but on first sight it looks playable. e.g. 7. b3, c6 8. Ba3 (Modern stonewall players as myself don't like to see white so easily exchange the bishops but I think that it shouldn't be a disaster.), Nbd7 (Black should restict himself of taking on a3 too early. Developing the queenside first is more appropriate and if white takes himself on e7 then the queen is automatically better positioned. Further the route to d3 for the knight on b1 is quicker via a3 than from b1.)


Hello everybody just joined this wonderful site and noticed this message since I was Brabo's opponent in the mentioned game Smiley.

In the game after 1. c4  f5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. 0-0 Bd6 6. cxd5 cxd5 7. d3, 0-0 8. Nc3 Na6 9.e4 fxe4 10.dxe4 dxe4 11.Ng5 Nc5... I played the ridiculous 12.b4 and after 12...Be5 had to fight very hard for the draw, but the reason for the strange b4 was that over the board i had discovered that my prepared line 12.Ncxe4 Nfxe4 13.Nxe4 was not that great because although white does keep considerable pressure after 13...Nxe4 14.Bxe4 black does not have to oblige him and after a simple 13...Be7 14.Nxc5 Bxc5 15.Qxd8 Rxd8 16.Bg5 Rf8! (other squares land black in trouble) I concluded white advantage is very marginal since black will regroup with Bb6 and c6. My 12.b4? was disaster but I still dont see how white could really trouble the black position although after 8...Na6 9.Be3 white might be a that better.

Greetings from Antwerp, Stefan.


I witnessed that game. Pretty intense stuff, even more so because Brabo was leading the tournament after a win against an IM and a draw against a GM. It was a close shave for Antigoon.

Anyway playing the stonewall Botwinnikstyle always has appealed to me. The b3 Ba3 plan doesn't look too frightening and if so: why jump trough hoops trying to slow it down? One could say that if black is not at ease with that prospect he should perhaps play something else  Cheesy.
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #32 - 03/04/10 at 12:36:04
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Quote:
Brabo wrote

A few months ago I encountered serious difficulties with the English in the line below which isn't mentioned in the book ' Win with the Stonewall Dutch':
1. c4, f5 2. Nf3, Nf6 3. g3, e6 4. Bg2, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. cd5:, cd5: 7. d3, 0-0 8. Nc3 += This moveorder avoids the dc4: lines which were in my opinion the last resort for black. The book covers 8.., Nc6 but mentions that black can't equalise with it. I played 8..., Na6 an old idea of my lab and although I came pretty close winning the game against my +2400 rated opponent, in theory it isn't good enough for equalty.

So this nasty surprise made me go back to my lab and have a long hard think about how to continue playing a Dutch against the English while keeping the link with the stonewall as close as possible because I am not really fond to switch to the classical Dutch which I always found shaky. The conclusion was that a Botvinnik stonewall (Be7) was still reasonable.
1. c4, f5 2. Nf3, Nf6 3. g3, e6 4. Bg2, Be7 5. 0-0, 0-0 6. d4, d5 (only now because otherwise white can skip d4 and swith to b3-d3 systems which aren't easy for black).

I've not been able to test this seriously but on first sight it looks playable. e.g. 7. b3, c6 8. Ba3 (Modern stonewall players as myself don't like to see white so easily exchange the bishops but I think that it shouldn't be a disaster.), Nbd7 (Black should restict himself of taking on a3 too early. Developing the queenside first is more appropriate and if white takes himself on e7 then the queen is automatically better positioned. Further the route to d3 for the knight on b1 is quicker via a3 than from b1.)


Hello everybody just joined this wonderful site and noticed this message since I was Brabo's opponent in the mentioned game Smiley.

In the game after 1. c4  f5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. 0-0 Bd6 6. cxd5 cxd5 7. d3, 0-0 8. Nc3 Na6 9.e4 fxe4 10.dxe4 dxe4 11.Ng5 Nc5... I played the ridiculous 12.b4 and after 12...Be5 had to fight very hard for the draw, but the reason for the strange b4 was that over the board i had discovered that my prepared line 12.Ncxe4 Nfxe4 13.Nxe4 was not that great because although white does keep considerable pressure after 13...Nxe4 14.Bxe4 black does not have to oblige him and after a simple 13...Be7 14.Nxc5 Bxc5 15.Qxd8 Rxd8 16.Bg5 Rf8! (other squares land black in trouble) I concluded white advantage is very marginal since black will regroup with Bb6 and c6. My 12.b4? was disaster but I still dont see how white could really trouble the black position although after 8...Na6 9.Be3 white might be a that better.

Greetings from Antwerp, Stefan.
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #31 - 02/18/10 at 14:09:58
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Mr Williams, my nickname is Ametanoitos ("man with no regrets" in Greek) and not Ametanitos!  Smiley Some here in thios foroum call me Amet but what remains in Anoitos which is the Greek word for the silly man but i don't expect anyone to know this!  Grin

I agree with you 100%! And i like your objectivity and honesty in the Dangerous Weapons book in which you try hard to make Black's position viable and if you consider a variation to be a slight problem from a theoritical point of view you do well to make it clear. In this respect these chapters on the Classical are also excellent for White players also because you clarify the most promising options for White also. In which opening White doesn't get a slight advantage anyway? (And please don't tell me the Nimzo, i have some thoughts on that recently!). Don't get me wrong, i just still prefer 7...Ne4 (with 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Nd2 d5 10.f3 exf3 11.Nxf3 Nc6 12.Be3 Na5 in mind as Tony Ro has suggested) and 7...Qe8 as Mnb proposes and i'm looking forward to receive your DVD to update the analysis i have on your old book. Just these particular chapters don;t convince me to make 7...a5 (or 7...Nc6) my main weapons but i may use them in a special occasion.

Anyone any thoughts on my analysis over the other variations?
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #30 - 02/18/10 at 12:32:51
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'As for William's analysis on the 7...Nc6 and 7...a5 continuations i have to say that he doesn't offer a complete solution to Black's theoritical problems. After 7...a5 8.Re1! Ne4 9.Qc2 Nxc3 10.bxc3! White is better according to the author (slightly that is but my PC gives a winning advantage for White in many lines. I don't say i trust it but for sure i don;t like this position for Black) and in the 7...Nc6 line he doesn't mention the critical 10.Qc2! as this was pointed out by Mr Buecker and me.'

Hi Ametanitos,

First of all my surname is, WILLIAMS, not William. No worries I am bad with names as well.  Cheesy
I am not sure if you read my earlier post on 7...Nc6 or not. If not, scroll up and you will see my thoughts on 7...Nc6. Basically, IT COULD BE A GOOD SURPRISE WEAPON, not to be played all the time but occasionally.

On the case of 7...a5. I might mention that White may be slightly better in some lines but the position is still complicated and offers both sides good chances to play for a win.
I am not sure what PC program you have but White is a long way from having a 'winning' position.

As far as I can see 7...a5 is still very playable and 7...Nc6 can be used to shock your opponent (hence dangerous weapon).
I am sure that if you took a number of established openings (Benko, Budapest, Kings Gambit) and put them on the computer then it would also come up with the same conclusion.
The gambitier is in trouble, but in practical play this is far from the truth.
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #29 - 02/18/10 at 11:02:47
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I received the book and i have some comments to make. First of all i like the book but i think i'm biased becaused i like the Dutch so....

As for William's analysis on the 7...Nc6 and 7...a5 continuations i have to say that he doesn't offer a complete solution to Black's theoritical problems. After 7...a5 8.Re1! Ne4 9.Qc2 Nxc3 10.bxc3! White is better according to the author (slightly that is but my PC gives a winning advantage for White in many lines. I don't say i trust it but for sure i don;t like this position for Black) and in the 7...Nc6 line he doesn't mention the critical 10.Qc2! as this was pointed out by Mr Buecker and me.

In Palliser's chapter about the e3+Be2+b4 systems for White against the Leningrad i think that a big and important possibility for Black is not mentioned. After 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 g6 5.e3 Bg7 6.Be2 O-O 7.O-O Nc6! 8.d5 Nb8! seems to me good enough with the Bishop on e2. For example 9.Qc2 (9.b4? Ne4) e5! 10.dxe6 Na6 with a better position for Black than in the main similar main lines because there is Be2 and not Bg2! Critical is 9.Nd4 Na6!? (also 9...a5 and 9...c5 should be investigated but i prefer keeping things simple) and Black will continue with ...e5+Nc5 and c6-Bxe6.

Also, in the X-mas tree aproach, in the critical 8.b4! move (given by M.Marin in his CBM 113 article) i had analysed 8...Ne4 9.Bb2 Nc6! 10.a3 and now 10...Qe7! is a move i had analysed some time ago (both 10...Qf6 and 10...d5 are at least slightly better for White imo). Now:

A) 11.Qc2 Nxd4 seems almost equal

B) 11. b5 Nxc3 12.Bxc3 Nd8 13.Qc2 b6
     was my original idea which seems OK for Black
C) 11.Rc1 Nd8! 12.Qc2 Nxc3 13.Qxc3
     (13.Bxc3 Nf7! 14.e4 e5! seems OK again)
     13...b6!? and i think tha Black has a good game
D) 11.e3 Nd8 12.Qc2 Nxc3 13.Bxc3     is another line suggested by the machine    
     13...Nf7 14.Ne1 e5 15.Nd3 c6
and again i don't see why Black should not be satisfied. In general i think that it is not so easy to equalise but i think that 10...Qe7 maybe is better than the other alternatives.
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #28 - 01/29/10 at 12:32:30
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/29/10 at 07:57:20:
Your idea with 13...Qe8 and 16...Nxe4! works only with 14.Qd3. If White plays 14.Qc2 after the same 14...Bc5 15.Na4 Bd6 16.e4 white is better.

After 13...Qe8 14.Qc2 Bc5 15.Na4 Bd6 16.e4 the reply 16...Qg6 17.Nc3 b5 seems best. It looks "dangerous", the simpler 10.Qc2!
achieves the same advantage, if not more.
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #27 - 01/29/10 at 12:17:01
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/29/10 at 11:35:59:
I know that it is not relevant here but after brabo's reply i'd like to point out that the Classical Dutch set-up is very strong against the English opening. I had just one game (in 2006) which continued

1. c4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. Nc3 Be7 5. d3 O-O 6. Nf3 d6 7. O-O Nc6 8. b4 Qe8 9. Rb1 e5 10. b5 Nd8
this set up was also reccomended in William's book
11. Nd5 Ne6 12. a4 Bd8 13. Ba3 f4
this is strong now that the bishop abandoned the protection of f4. Note that the Bd8 bishop does a great job. If White plays e3 Black can continue with g5 and Qh5 and f4
14.e3 Nxd5 15. cxd5 Ng5 16. Nxg5 Bxg5 17. exf4 exf4 18. Be4 Bh3
White didn't want his Bg2 to be locked after f3 but now f2 is a problem
19. Re1 Qf7 20.Qc2 a6 21. bxa6 b6 22. a5 Rxa6 23. Bb4 bxa5 24. Ra1 Bf6 25. Rxa5 Rxa5 26. Bxa5 fxg3 27. hxg3 Bd4 28. Re2 Bg4 29. Rd2 Be3
and White resigned.


After d3 my intention was indeed to switch to a classical Dutch because black gets e5 for free.
However as often things are a bit more complicated.

1. c4, f5 2. Nf3, Nf6 3. g3, e6 4. Bg2, Be7 5. 0-0, 0-0 6. b3 (6. d4 can be answered by a stonewall; 6. Nc3 can also be answered by a stonewall because after 6.., d5 7. d3, c6 8. e4 black can play de4: or fe4: ; d3 a classical Dutch looks attractive), d6 (A stonewall is now not good because of d3 and developping the knight to d2, bishop to b2 with advantage for white) 7. d4 and we achieved a classical Dutch but avoided some of the most critical variations.
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #26 - 01/29/10 at 11:35:59
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I know that it is not relevant here but after brabo's reply i'd like to point out that the Classical Dutch set-up is very strong against the English opening. I had just one game (in 2006) which continued

1. c4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. Nc3 Be7 5. d3 O-O 6. Nf3 d6 7. O-O Nc6 8. b4 Qe8 9. Rb1 e5 10. b5 Nd8
this set up was also reccomended in William's book
11. Nd5 Ne6 12. a4 Bd8 13. Ba3 f4
this is strong now that the bishop abandoned the protection of f4. Note that the Bd8 bishop does a great job. If White plays e3 Black can continue with g5 and Qh5 and f4
14.e3 Nxd5 15. cxd5 Ng5 16. Nxg5 Bxg5 17. exf4 exf4 18. Be4 Bh3
White didn't want his Bg2 to be locked after f3 but now f2 is a problem
19. Re1 Qf7 20.Qc2 a6 21. bxa6 b6 22. a5 Rxa6 23. Bb4 bxa5 24. Ra1 Bf6 25. Rxa5 Rxa5 26. Bxa5 fxg3 27. hxg3 Bd4 28. Re2 Bg4 29. Rd2 Be3
and White resigned.

  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #25 - 01/29/10 at 09:25:34
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The great chess teacher Nikos Karapanos has said:

"Almost all the major opening systems for Black after 1.d4 have problems against the fianchetto variations and the good thing is that Black players dont realise that. For example a KID player has many problems to solve in his preparation and the fianchetto variation goes unoticed. Also against the Grunfeld and the Nimzo the same problem.
  Only the Benoni has not problems against g3 but has problems in any other variation! Also the in the Slav white can play 4.Qc2 and reach something like a Catalan which seems a valid choice to fight for an opening advantage. So, it remains the Dutch! But not everyone can play it!"

This is why i started to study the Dutch....
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #24 - 01/29/10 at 09:18:52
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/27/10 at 18:15:42:
I'm planning to use the Classical Dutch this weekend to counter my opponent's English opening and there is little chance to enter the main line but i'd like to know what is the new big idea in the 7...Nc6 variation. I have looked at this with Rybka and after 8.d5 Ne5 9.Nd4 Nxc4 10.Nxe6 White is better in all lines. So, can anyone reveal the big idea Mr Williams has after 8.d5?


A few months ago I encountered serious difficulties with the English in the line below which isn't mentioned in the book ' Win with the Stonewall Dutch':
1. c4, f5 2. Nf3, Nf6 3. g3, e6 4. Bg2, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. cd5:, cd5: 7. d3, 0-0 8. Nc3 += This moveorder avoids the dc4: lines which were in my opinion the last resort for black. The book covers 8.., Nc6 but mentions that black can't equalise with it. I played 8..., Na6 an old idea of my lab and although I came pretty close winning the game against my +2400 rated opponent, in theory it isn't good enough for equalty.

So this nasty surprise made me go back to my lab and have a long hard think about how to continue playing a Dutch against the English while keeping the link with the stonewall as close as possible because I am not really fond to switch to the classical Dutch which I always found shaky. The conclusion was that a Botvinnik stonewall (Be7) was still reasonable.
1. c4, f5 2. Nf3, Nf6 3. g3, e6 4. Bg2, Be7 5. 0-0, 0-0 6. d4, d5 (only now because otherwise white can skip d4 and swith to b3-d3 systems which aren't easy for black).

I've not been able to test this seriously but on first sight it looks playable. e.g. 7. b3, c6 8. Ba3 (Modern stonewall players as myself don't like to see white so easily exchange the bishops but I think that it shouldn't be a disaster.), Nbd7 (Black should restict himself of taking on a3 too early. Developing the queenside first is more appropriate and if white takes himself on e7 then the queen is automatically better positioned. Further the route to d3 for the knight on b1 is quicker via a3 than from b1.)
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #23 - 01/29/10 at 09:04:41
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There is a reason the book is called, 'Dangerous Weapons'.
Not all of the variations in these books are 100% correct but they can act as very good suprise weapons.
This is the case with 7...Nc6!? I do not believe that it is entirley sound but if played against the right opponent it could work out very well.
I still believe that 7...a5 7...Qe8 and 7...Ne4 are very playable.
The reason I have not been playing the Dutch so much myself is simple. I am getting sick of people spending 4 hours every morning preparing against me! Give me a chance to throw some other openings in chessbase then I will surprise them with the Dutch again!
Ok enjoy!
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #22 - 01/29/10 at 07:57:20
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Your idea with 13...Qe8 and 16...Nxe4! works only with 14.Qd3. If White plays 14.Qc2 after the same 14...Bc5 15.Na4 Bd6 16.e4 white is better.

I also don't trust 13...Ne4 and 13...Bc5 but maybe i'll be convinced if i see William's analysis. For the moment i'll stick to 7...Qe8!
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #21 - 01/28/10 at 16:53:14
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After 13.Qxf5, I still prefer 13...Qe8! 14.Qd3 Bc5 15.Na4 (15.e4 Ng4!) 15...Bd6 16.e4, but now 16...Qg6?! 17.Nc3 Rae8 (so far my last post) fails to 18.f4. Thus, 16...Nxe4! 17.Bxe4 Ne5, when Black has nothing to fear.

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/28/10 at 15:26:48:
That was my concern also. I thought that even if i could fing something after 13.Qxf5 (i haven't analysed your idea yet) there is also 10.dxe6 which is simple enough for a safe small edge (also Williams in his book says that) and 10.Qc2!? which also seems to generate some problems for Black.

10.dxe6 may be +=, but yes, 10.Qc2! could be critical.
  
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