ChessPub Forum - Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch

Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3265 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #20 - 01/28/10 at 16:30:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Ametanoitos I think you're taking 7...Nc6 a bit too seriously. Williams on his DVD only claims it's a good suprise weapon to catch out unprepared White players. But variation-wise you're on the right track. The position after 13.Qxf5 is Williams' main line on the DVD, and he focuses on 13...Bc5 (14.Qh3; 14.b3) and 13...Ne4 intending ...Nxc3 and play against White's weakened queenside.

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1427 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #19 - 01/28/10 at 15:26:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	That was my concern also. I thought that even if i could fing something after 13.Qxf5 (i haven't analysed your idea yet) there is also 10.dxe6 which is simple enough for a safe small edge (also Williams in his book says that) and 10.Qc2!? which also seems to generate some problems for Black.


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Stefan Buecker

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Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch
Reply #18 - 01/28/10 at 12:32:32

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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/28/10 at 09:21:08:

It is 7...Nc6. The only idea i found is 8.d5 Ne5 9.Nd4 Nxc4 10.Nxe6 Bxe6 11.dxe6 c6 12.Qd3 d5 13.Qxf5 Bc5!?
(13...Bb4 14.Qc2! gives William in his Classical Dutch book as slightly better for White but according to the engines here White has a significant advantage after e2-e4!)
and now after 14.Qc2 Black can generate some nclear complications with 14...Ng4 but even here White may objectively be better. The problem is that White can play for example 14.Qh3 and now i don't trust Black's position. What is the trick?????

I don't have the book (yet), so I can only speculate: (13.Qxf5) Qe8! 14.Qd3 (now if 14.Qh3? Qg6! comp.; 14.Qc2!? Bc5) 14...Bc5 15.Na4 Bd6 16.e4 Qg6.

Pinning the e4-pawn, with excellent tactical chances. The PC at first gives 17.Nc3 Rae8 18.b3 Ne5 19.Qd4 Nfg4 (19...c5 20.Qd1) 20.f4 as better for White, but 20...Nxh2! 21.Kxh2 Ng4+ 22.Kg1 Qh5 23.Rf3 Rxe6 forces a draw, for example 24.e5 Qh2+ 25.Kf1 Qh5 26.exd6 Nh2+ 27.Kf2 Ng4+ etc., draw.
But there are attractive alternatives for White around move 10, so I can understand why the next chapter is titled "The Old Faithful 7...a5!" That's what my brother used to play.

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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1427 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #17 - 01/28/10 at 10:43:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	I meant what is the trick for Black? I don't think that after 13.Qxf5 Black has close to adequate play. The problem is that White don't have to find a norrow path but has many possibilities. Also the break with e4 is very very easy to find. So, i suppose that Williams will have another idea or another good 13nth move for Black. Can anyone post what it is? Not the analysis but the main idea so that we can start a conversation here.


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thibdb13 God Member Offline Tal was the best Posts: 974 Location: Mechelen Joined: 01/25/07 Gender:	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #16 - 01/28/10 at 10:13:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 01/28/10 at 09:21:08: What is the trick????? The trick is that white has to remain calm and, at the same, reasonnably aggressive. Not so easy...

	Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1427 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #15 - 01/28/10 at 09:21:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	It is 7...Nc6. The only idea i found is 8.d5 Ne5 9.Nd4 Nxc4 10.Nxe6 Bxe6 11.dxe6 c6 12.Qd3 d5 13.Qxf5 Bc5!? (13...Bb4 14.Qc2! gives William in his Classical Dutch book as slightly better for White but according to the engines here White has a significant advantage after e2-e4!) and now after 14.Qc2 Black can generate some nclear complications with 14...Ng4 but even here White may objectively be better. The problem is that White can play for example 14.Qh3 and now i don't trust Black's position. What is the trick?????


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Glenn Snow God Member Offline Posts: 1720 Location: Franklin Joined: 09/27/03 Gender:	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #14 - 01/28/10 at 08:47:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	The table of contents can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Weapons-Dutch-Dazzle-Opponents/dp/1857446240#rea...


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10756 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #13 - 01/27/10 at 23:20:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Are you sure that it is 7...Nc6 and not 7...Qe8 8.b3 Nc6 ? That's the line Keith Hayward has played for more than 20 years. The idea is 9.d5 Nd8 (10.Nb5 Nxd5).

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1427 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #12 - 01/27/10 at 18:15:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm planning to use the Classical Dutch this weekend to counter my opponent's English opening and there is little chance to enter the main line but i'd like to know what is the new big idea in the 7...Nc6 variation. I have looked at this with Rybka and after 8.d5 Ne5 9.Nd4 Nxc4 10.Nxe6 White is better in all lines. So, can anyone reveal the big idea Mr Williams has after 8.d5?


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Pier lala YaBB Newbies Offline Auf tutti! Posts: 12 Location: Amsterdam Joined: 01/25/10 Gender:	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #11 - 01/25/10 at 20:28:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Antillian wrote on 01/04/10 at 14:32:51: I am disappointed it does not cover 1 Nf3 f5 2 d3 from White's perspective. I would have bought it for that alone. I bought this book last week. And in my opinion is a complete chapter handling this matter in white as well as black's view. I like this book especially for it's anti-Leningrad chapter. It might be helpfull because i planned to play more "dutch".


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ChevyBanginStyle Full Member Offline 2 \infty & CRUNCH Posts: 238 Joined: 01/03/10	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #10 - 01/08/10 at 00:44:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 01/06/10 at 13:13:19: Have you seen http://sverreschesscorner.blogspot.com/2009/12/block-with-rook.html and the comments below? Thanks for the link. Actually I saw that blog post earlier while I was searching for reviews on the book. I see that someone in the comments mentioned the recent game Bellin - Williams where Black played 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 d6 3.e4 e5 4.Nc3 c5!? and won nicely in 24 moves. Simon Williams annotated the game on his blog: http://www.gingergm.com/2009/12/18/a-battle-in-the-dutch/ This move seems very risky since Black is behind in development and has to play ...h5 at an early stage. I'll have to look at it more before I draw a conclusion, but it looks like it should mainly be used as a surprise weapon. I just got the Dangerous Weapons book this afternoon, so I look forward to reading the recommendations. Maybe I will post some thoughts later.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #9 - 01/06/10 at 13:13:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Have you seen http://sverreschesscorner.blogspot.com/2009/12/block-with-rook.html and the comments below?


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ChevyBanginStyle Full Member Offline 2 \infty & CRUNCH Posts: 238 Joined: 01/03/10	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #8 - 01/04/10 at 21:38:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 01/04/10 at 14:10:03: LeeRoth wrote on 02/15/09 at 16:02:32: JEH wrote on 02/15/09 at 10:44:05: I thought the whole Dutch was a Dangerous Weapon For which color? Exactly. You could compare playing this defense to discharging a rusty musket. It may slaughter your enemy, but it could just as well blow up in your face. That's perhaps less true of the Stonewall, but even there Black takes big strategic risks. But more on topic, I wonder what Black's "dangerous weapons" are supposed to be, given the gradualist character of Black's play in this system. Hmm, let me guess: Leningrad with 9...Nc6 will be among them. But what in the Stonewall? White's Dangerous Weapon #1? The Staunton Gambit, of course. I wonder if they'll cover it. They cover the "Christmas Tree" Leningrad with 7...e6 and the gambit approach is with h3! (Two chapters cover 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.h3 and 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.h3 Nf6 4.g4.) I'm particularly interested in Simon Williams' coverage of 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e4 Rh7 and the chapters on the Classical Dutch (7...a5 and 7...Nc6!?). Also I'm a little interested in the chapter on 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3. I remember thinking that 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 was maybe the best approach, but then I felt like 3.e4 e5 4.d4! transposes to a Vienna that I would not feel comfortable with, even though I'd effectively be playing the White side with the Black pieces! I had pretty much abandoned 1.Nf3 f5 in favor of the Symmetrical English. (1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5!? is a fun line for Kalishnikov aficionados, covered in Dangerous Weapons: Flank Openings.) Maybe this book will change my mind.


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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #7 - 01/04/10 at 14:32:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am disappointed it does not cover 1 Nf3 f5 2 d3 from White's perspective. I would have bought it for that alone.

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch Reply #6 - 01/04/10 at 14:29:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 01/04/10 at 14:10:03: LeeRoth wrote on 02/15/09 at 16:02:32: JEH wrote on 02/15/09 at 10:44:05: I thought the whole Dutch was a Dangerous Weapon For which color? Exactly. You could compare playing this defense to discharging a rusty musket. It may slaughter your enemy, but it could just as well blow up in your face. That's perhaps less true of the Stonewall, but even there Black takes big strategic risks. But more on topic, I wonder what Black's "dangerous weapons" are supposed to be, given the gradualist character of Black's play in this system. Hmm, let me guess: Leningrad with 9...Nc6 will be among them. But what in the Stonewall? White's Dangerous Weapon #1? The Staunton Gambit, of course. I wonder if they'll cover it. Check the pdf at everyman website. Has contents page for you.

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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