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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C07-C09: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular ? (Read 11877 times)
kylemeister
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Re: C07-C09: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular ?
Reply #11 - 02/14/13 at 17:29:00
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BabySnake wrote on 02/14/13 at 13:09:22:
Karpov-ian


I can't help but be reminded of his unspectacular results on the white side of this line in the 1974 candidates' final (/de facto world championship match).  One of the games reached, in the words of Robert Byrne, "the sort of position Karpov has been aiming for -- Korchnoi is entirely occupied with the defense of the QP," but Anatoly still didn't win.
  
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Re: C07-C09: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular ?
Reply #10 - 02/14/13 at 13:09:22
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True to an extent Vass!

But the fact that black does not get his ideal IQP set-up should not mean the variation is bad? Black does have to make compromises in every opening he plays.

My understanding is that if white knows how to handle this IQP position in Karpov-ian fashion then he has the advantage. Much like the theoretical situation is for white in the QG Tarrasch IQP main line positions.

But this should not mean that club level players, and even players up to 2300/2400 should not use this variation for black if they understand it and know how to handle the positions. By studying for example the games of Uhlmann, Vaganian and Korchnoi.
  
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Re: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular now ?
Reply #9 - 02/14/13 at 12:51:55
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BabySnake wrote on 02/14/13 at 11:22:20:
Phil Adams wrote on 03/03/09 at 12:10:33:
A propos the IQP line, it might be significant that long-time French specialists Vaganian and Lputian seem to have now (or at least for the time being) abandoned the old main of the 3...c5 IQP (3 Nd2 c5 4 exd5 exd5 5 Nf3 Nc6 6 Bb5 Bd6 and ...Nge7) in favour of the one-time Bareev favourite 5...Nf6 6 Bb5+ Bd7.


Can anybody tell me what the problem is for black in this line

3 Nd2 c5 4 exd5 exd5 5 Nf3 Nc6 6 Bb5 Bd6 and ...Nge7

So specifically why it seems today universally recommended to play 5...Nf6 rather than 5...Nc6.

For example Ametanoitos in several posts on the forum and Eingorn in his recent book.


BabySnake wrote on 02/14/13 at 10:53:19:
Indeed, page 62 of the old version of the book Positional Play.

After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.exd5 exd5 5.Ngf3 Nc6 6.Bb5 Bd6 7.dxc5 Bxc5 8.Nb3 Bd6 9. 0-0
Dvoretsky says:

In 1974 I spent several days
training with Korchnoi as he prepared
for his World Championship
Candidates final against Karpov. I
recall that we were investigating
a similar position from the same
opening variation, and I asked
Korchnoi why he developed the
knight to f6 rather than e7. He
looked at me in surprise.
'Let's have a look at it. How
should you place your pieces when
you have an isolated pawn? The
place for the knight is on f6, and
later, on e4. It's best to keep the
bishop on the g1 -a7 diagonal -
where it exerts pressure on f2. In
the main variation Black plays
8...Bd6 and 9...Nge7, simply because
of specific circumstances (if
9...Nf6, then 10.Re1+ is unpleasant,
whilst in the event of 8...Bb6
White can offer an exchange of
bishops which is favourable to him
with 9.Re1+ and 10.Be3). But if I
have time to put my pieces on their
rightful squares without being
punished, that is what I must do.'
Assessments like this can be
heard from the lips (or read in the
commentaries) of great chess players,
who at times can help you to
grasp the finesses of an opening
strategy far better than articles and books.


Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular now ?
Reply #8 - 02/14/13 at 11:22:20
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Phil Adams wrote on 03/03/09 at 12:10:33:
A propos the IQP line, it might be significant that long-time French specialists Vaganian and Lputian seem to have now (or at least for the time being) abandoned the old main of the 3...c5 IQP (3 Nd2 c5 4 exd5 exd5 5 Nf3 Nc6 6 Bb5 Bd6 and ...Nge7) in favour of the one-time Bareev favourite 5...Nf6 6 Bb5+ Bd7.


Can anybody tell me what the problem is for black in this line

3 Nd2 c5 4 exd5 exd5 5 Nf3 Nc6 6 Bb5 Bd6 and ...Nge7

So specifically why it seems today universally recommended to play 5...Nf6 rather than 5...Nc6.

For example Ametanoitos in several posts on the forum and Eingorn in his recent book.
  
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Re: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular now ?
Reply #7 - 03/03/09 at 17:34:55
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Excellent quote from Elvest! Thanks....
  
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Re: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular now ?
Reply #6 - 03/03/09 at 12:10:33
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saubhikr wrote on 02/26/09 at 17:43:12:
Due to the fact that 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch was played twice in Topalov-Kamsky match, will the variation be more popular now ?

What do you think ?

Though the result was 0-2, you may not blame the opening for that. In game 2, it was black who was winning, I think.


I think it is worth clarifying some issues here.

First, the 3...c5 variation has never really gone away. French specialists have continued to play it, even though it has not been seen much at the highest levels in recent years. It will always remain a principled reply to 3 Nd2

Second, the 3...c5 Tarrasch is not monolithic. Play in the two main branches (...Qxd5 or IQP) is very different.

In the Qxd5 line, Black has a good structure but it's a semi-open game, often with Open Sicilian-like sharpness and very concrete play in the late opening and middlegame. It is unwise to go into these lines unless well prepared. Also, it is necessary to be comfortable in endgames with the typical pawn formation of white 3-2 queenside majority vs black 4-3 kingside majority.

In the IQP lines, Black has the worse structure for the endgame and must be prepared to suffer if he can't achieve anything in the middle game. Still, as Kortchnoi showed, the endings are often tenable if a player has studied them and knows which piece exchanges to avoid.
GM Jaan Ehlvest wrote in The Story of a Chess Player: "This is the kind of position where you cannot get help from FRITZ. To play these positions well you must study in depth such games as those in the aforementioned match between Karpov and Korchnoi as well as those in another famous match between Spassky and Petrosian in 1969, where Spassky played the Tarrasch defense. The Russian-American GM Anatoly Lein is also a big specialist in how to handle the isolated pawn. It is not easy to handle – this is why Karpov and Kasparov often avoided these kinds of positions throughout their careers. On the other hand it is true that these positions are for lazy boys. You are not in danger ever as long as you know the general rules of handling them. In the 1974 match, Korchnoi drew all his games against Karpov in the French, and immediately lost two crucial games when he tried to surprise Karpov with another opening."

A propos the IQP line, it might be significant that long-time French specialists Vaganian and Lputian seem to have now (or at least for the time being) abandoned the old main of the 3...c5 IQP (3 Nd2 c5 4 exd5 exd5 5 Nf3 Nc6 6 Bb5 Bd6 and ...Nge7) in favour of the one-time Bareev favourite 5...Nf6 6 Bb5+ Bd7.
  
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Re: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular now ?
Reply #5 - 02/28/09 at 08:25:01
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Just a few points on Topalov v Kamsky

a) Game 1- I think Gata was ok in the opening but exchanging the dark squared bishop was not a strong move. Earlier on Black could have tried an interesting de meeting qa4 f5 with qc6 kf7

b) Game 2 - It is true in the complications Kamsky did have a winning position . On the opening be7 isn't a bad move but I think the qb6 idea was giving topalov the type of game he loves. I don't know why Topalov didn't play the main line and went for the early re1-
  
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Re: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular now ?
Reply #4 - 02/27/09 at 08:03:27
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saubhikr wrote on 02/26/09 at 17:43:12:
Due to the fact that 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch was played twice in Topalov-Kamsky match, will the variation be more popular now ?

What do you think ?

Though the result was 0-2, you may not blame the opening for that. In game 2, it was black who was winning, I think.


GM Topalov played the Tarrasch just because he didn't risk in the 3 Nc3 stuff. Right, the opening was not the reason why Kamsky failed. I've got a feeling he hasn't been totally ready for the tough match struggle, that is all.
  
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Re: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular now ?
Reply #3 - 02/27/09 at 00:41:37
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I did a search in Chessbase, and they played it 7 times in their 1974 Candidates final (which was basically a world championship match due to Fischer not playing in 1975), all draws. Korchnoi also played the french twice in 1978, games  16 and 22, both draws. The only game Karpov won was a training game from 1971. All the games were in the Tarrasch featuring an isolated queen pawn.

Please note Chessbase spells it Kortschnoj in their database, if you want to find the games.


  
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Re: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular now ?
Reply #2 - 02/26/09 at 22:09:00
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Korchnoi did not dare to play it in the two WCh-matches. Says something as well.
  

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Re: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular now ?
Reply #1 - 02/26/09 at 17:59:21
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Kortchnoi never lost it against Karpov, I think.

That should say something.
  
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C07-C09: Will 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch be more popular ?
02/26/09 at 17:43:12
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Due to the fact that 3.Nd2 c5 Tarrasch was played twice in Topalov-Kamsky match, will the variation be more popular now ?

What do you think ?

Though the result was 0-2, you may not blame the opening for that. In game 2, it was black who was winning, I think.
« Last Edit: 07/25/11 at 17:17:00 by dom »  
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