Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative (Read 8284 times)
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1386
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #15 - 03/19/09 at 09:27:54
Post Tools
When the Sicilian Defence was young, the reply Bc4 was a favourite weapon of Anderssen and Neumann. The key idea was to prevent d7-d5 and b7-b5, and so White should continue with Nc3 and a4, d3 and Nge2. I don't think it is easy to prove an advantage for Black. Yes, the reply e6 & d5 is logical and should be considered as the main line. But what if 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.Bc4 ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Zatox
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 175
Joined: 03/11/08
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #14 - 03/19/09 at 09:18:35
Post Tools
I have gotten 2.Bc4 some times against me, Always answered 2...e6 followed bij d7-d5 and had a nice opening advantage with black =]
  

'Experts vs The Sicilian' is a great book, but it is not the Bible. - TopNotch
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4764
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #13 - 03/18/09 at 15:48:33
Post Tools
I would suggest to you that Black should not be putting his knight on the edge like that, when he can play a normal and good move like 3...Nf6; for example, 4. Qe2 d5 looks slightly better for Black (while 3...Na5 4. Be2 is perhaps slightly better for White -- much better than he deserves).      
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Visigoth
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 16
Joined: 02/11/09
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #12 - 03/18/09 at 12:16:42
Post Tools
Nc6 working pretty well. Had an odd "Slomato" game: 1.e4 c5 2.Bc4 Nc6 3.c3? Na5 4. Bxf7 Kxf7.  I held on to win by following the "return the material at some point" maxim----but it put me on my calculating toes.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragan Glas
Senior Member
****
Offline


"If I, like Solomon, ...
could have my wish -
"

Posts: 424
Location: Ireland
Joined: 06/25/06
Gender: Male
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #11 - 03/04/09 at 20:07:03
Post Tools
Greetings,

Perhaps - Malcolm Pein, in his report on Nakamura-Volokitin, gave 3. Qxc5 Nxe4 4. Qe3 d5 5. d3 Nf6 as a possible line.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
AlanG
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 159
Joined: 10/16/08
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #10 - 03/04/09 at 19:46:56
Post Tools
Dragan Glas wrote on 03/04/09 at 19:10:24:
I'm sure this is from one of the SOS books: this somewhat confusing move attacks Black's pawn on c5(!) and "auto-pilot" moves such as ..., g6?/..., Nf6? and ..., Nc6? all drop the pawn.


Nf6 is OK, I think. If Qxc5 then Nxe4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragan Glas
Senior Member
****
Offline


"If I, like Solomon, ...
could have my wish -
"

Posts: 424
Location: Ireland
Joined: 06/25/06
Gender: Male
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #9 - 03/04/09 at 19:10:24
Post Tools
Greetings,

You're not the only one to mistake it for a Eastern European name! Actually, it's Irish for "Green Dragon", as we discussed this thread.

I've corrected a couple of errors above - the moves were in the wrong order.

Also, I've come across another move in blitz games by White in this "anti-Sicilian" ...

1.e4, c5; 2.Qh5(!!?)

I'm sure this is from one of the SOS books: this somewhat confusing move attacks Black's pawn on c5(!) and "auto-pilot" moves such as ..., g6?/..., Nf6? and ..., Nc6? all drop the pawn.

There are two possible ways for Black to protect the pawn:

a) 2..., d6 - normal Dragon fare. What Black plays next depends on White - if 3.Bc4 (Yes - that again!) Black should play 3..., e6 now, giving up the idea of a g6-based Sicilian, otherwise he can get into difficulties pretty quickly.

[After 3.Bc4, g6?!; (for example) 4.Qd5, e6; (forced into it now!) 5.Bb5+, Nd7(!); (Not 5..., Bd7??; (5..., Nc6? obviously loses a pawn - 6.Bxc6+, bc; 7.Qxc6+, Bd7) 6.Qxb7 is a mess.) 6.Bxd7+, Qxd7; 7.Q moves manages to hold things together. Although this line looks playable - Black does have the two bishops and his pawn structure is still intact - both sides will have to sort out their development (..., Ne7 might be better than ..., Nf6 to avoid any e5 advance by White).

If White plays 3.Nf3 then 3..., Nc6 - as you mentioned above - should work again (after 4.Ng5, Ne5; 5.Bb5+ is annoying as it does result in the exchange of bishops with 5..., Bd7, etc - 5...,Nc6 is possible, but White might then try 6.Bc4, Ne5 again or even bring the queen out to f3/h5-d5(!) with Black having to play rather carefully!]

b) 2..., e6; Now 3.Bc4 is rendered pointless and, through the c-pawn being protected by the Bf8, so too is white's second move. White can try 3.Nf3, but 3..., Nf6 forces the queen to move elsewhere and gives time for further preventative/developmental moves by Black.

All-in-all, Black has to be careful with these sort of lines if he insists on playing any form of Dragon.  Undecided

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Visigoth
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 16
Joined: 02/11/09
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #8 - 03/04/09 at 15:54:52
Post Tools
Thanks Dragan Glas (name explanation please---I am thinking of Derrida's "Glas' but you could be really named dragan (a slav). It works for 2 nf3 3 bc4 too.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragan Glas
Senior Member
****
Offline


"If I, like Solomon, ...
could have my wish -
"

Posts: 424
Location: Ireland
Joined: 06/25/06
Gender: Male
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #7 - 03/04/09 at 15:27:01
Post Tools
Greetings,

Like others here, I've run into this (pseudo-)KIA in blitz online.

Certainly the ...,e6/...,d5 pawn play is "best" for those who don't mind if they end up playing a e6-based Sicilian, rather than a g6-based Dragon (or variant).

Since I want to play a Dragon or some version of it (Accelerated/Hyper-Accelerated) however, I generally don't play 2/3...., e6.

So...

1.e4, c5; 2.Bc4, Nc6; [Edit: It is this move I play against Bc4, which replaces the usual 2..., d6.]

Here there are two possible continuations, from what I've seen online...

a) 3.Qf3 (Yes - short and sharp!), Ne5; 4.Qe2, Nxc4; 5.Qxc4 and I then continue with a (Hyper-)Accelerated Dragon by playing ..., g6 as soon as possible. The two bishops also help!

b) 3.Nf3 (with the idea of 4.Ng5 intending either 5.Bxf7 mate(!) or 5.Nxf7 forking queen and rook), Na5; (At this point White has to decide whether to keep the bishop on the a2-g8 diagonal and allow the exchange - 4.Bb3, Nxb3 or 4.Bd5, e6;/4.Bb5, a6; (with 5.Ba4, b5 in the latter case) and then ..., Nxb3 - or retreat it to d3 or (better) e2).

Either way, I still get to play a flavour of the Dragon. Wink

One still has to be careful of an f4+e5 advance by White after ..., Nf6 though.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
« Last Edit: 03/04/09 at 19:16:15 by Dragan Glas »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Visigoth
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 16
Joined: 02/11/09
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #6 - 03/04/09 at 13:34:03
Post Tools
I have had several tense ones with this move too. Usually either a drubbing (after Bxf7) or sometimes a seat of my pants counter-drubbing.  I, too, have noodled out via "recalcitrant experience" that ...2 e6 is good. My question: is one thereby irretrievably OUT of the Dragon? Don't fianchetto? Black bishop to e7?? If so what is it that I am now playing? What kind of sicilian (help to know where to look)?

  Perhaps a silly question BUT ....

I might add that 1.e4 c5  2. Nf3 d6  3. Bc4     is also annoying in a similar fashion. I suppose e6 here as well but now the white K scurries to safety and perhaps can bring a lot of force to bear quickly with 4. 0-0  then 5 R e1.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lakersfan
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 5
Joined: 09/17/08
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #5 - 03/01/09 at 04:41:21
Post Tools
Thanks Kylemeister and everyone on this post and on the link Kylemeister provided.  The data looks good, I knew 2 Bc4 wasn't very good but was having a hard time proving it.   Part of my problem is the opponent is slow and methodical and he wears me out.  But with this assistance I have confidence I can respond to his methods.  thanks again.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scott
Ex Member
**


Why did I just move that?!

Gender: Male
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #4 - 03/01/09 at 02:02:12
Post Tools
3... a6 is a good response to 3 Nc3, as well. After Nc3, you'll want to play Nf6, as well to help cover the d5 square.

I don't think that 2 Bc4 is really a very good option for White against the Sicilian. If you're careful you should get by well by just playing on general priciples as Black.
  
My style is somewhere between that of Petrosian and Tal.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #3 - 03/01/09 at 01:33:50
Post Tools
1.e4 c5 2.Bc4 e6 3.Nf3 a6!? looks like a good antidote, with the idea of 4.a4 d5, since compared to 1.e4 c5 2.Bc4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.ed5 ed5 5.Bb5 followed by d4, White no longer has the option of Bb5+. Therefore White's best is probably to settle for equality after 4.d3 b5 5.Bb3.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scott
Ex Member
**


Why did I just move that?!

Gender: Male
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #2 - 03/01/09 at 01:02:57
Post Tools
I'm no expert, but I've had to play against it quite a few times in online play. 2... e6 is good. It immediately prevents Bxf7, and prepares d5. You'll want to play d5 as soon as possible. Hope that helps.
  
My style is somewhere between that of Petrosian and Tal.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4764
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 2 Bc4 2nd move altenative
Reply #1 - 02/28/09 at 17:42:47
Post Tools
2...d6, while of course playable, is surely sub-optimal.  You might look at http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1170266680 .
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo