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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C41: Antoshin : improvement for black after 6.Bf4 (Read 16070 times)
tp2205
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Re: C41: Antoshin : improvement for black after 6.Bf4
Reply #16 - 07/11/20 at 10:26:46
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MNb wrote on 07/11/20 at 08:04:29:
I quite like 7.Be2 iso 7.Qd2 as ...d5 then simply is bad. White will usually play 8.Qd2 making Black guess a bit longer at which side White will castle. Of course 6.g3 is what all strong players recommend, but I prefer for subjective reasons straightforward development as in 6.Bf4, 7.Be2 and 8.Qd2.

Actually Negi recommended 6. Be2, 7. Bf4 and then in most lines 8.Qd2 in his 1e4 repertoire.
  
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Re: C41: Antoshin : improvement for black after 6.Bf4
Reply #15 - 07/11/20 at 08:04:29
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I quite like 7.Be2 iso 7.Qd2 as ...d5 then simply is bad. White will usually play 8.Qd2 making Black guess a bit longer at which side White will castle. Of course 6.g3 is what all strong players recommend, but I prefer for subjective reasons straightforward development as in 6.Bf4, 7.Be2 and 8.Qd2.
  

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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #14 - 03/21/11 at 21:39:57
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I don't have any (book) sources on this line, but the most recent game Biriukov - Gutsko, UKR 2010 looks quite convincing to me:
10.Nxa8 dxc3 11.Qxd8 Rxd8 12.bxc3 Nxe4 13.Bd3 +/- Black has insufficient compensation for the exchange (1-0, 40).
  
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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #13 - 03/21/11 at 09:02:19
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Hi Schroeder,

thanks for your reply. Good to know that somebody shares my opinion in this position. Your lines are indeed better for black, but donīt change the general evaluation of the position.

A few weeks ago I thought I could get a test of these lines, but my opponent surprised me with:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 exd 5.Nxd4 Be7 6.Bf4 00 7.Qd2 d5 8.Ndb5 c6!? 9.Nc7 d4!? reaching this position:

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After 10.000 Nh5 11.Nxa8 Nxf4 12.Qxd4 we had a complicated game, which I eventually won. Does anybody have any sources on these lines and theoretical recommendations / evaluations?
  

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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #12 - 03/17/11 at 19:52:44
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Unfortunately, during my corr game with Luc Henris, I noticed this thread too late - after I had already played 11.Qe3, which apparently leads to a forced draw.

[Event "SA-2011-0-00182"]
[Site "Lechenicher SchachServer"]
[Date "2011.03.17"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Schroeder, Christoph"]
[Black "Henris, Luc"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2138"]
[BlackElo "2189"]
[PlyCount "56"]
[EventDate "2011.02.07"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. Bf4 O-O 7. Qd2 d5 8.
Ndb5 Bb4 9. O-O-O c6 10. Nc7 Nxe4 11. Qe3 Nxc3 12. bxc3 Ba3+ 13. Kb1 Na6 14.
Bxa6 bxa6 15. Nxa8 Qa5 16. c4 dxc4 17. Be5 Re8 18. Bc3 Qb5+ 19. Ka1 Rxe3 20.
Rd8+ Bf8 21. fxe3 Qb7 22. Rb1 Qxa8 23. Be5 c5 24. Rb8 Qe4 25. Bd6 h5 26. Rxf8+
Kh7 27. Rfxc8 Qxc2 28. Bxc5 Qc1+ 1/2-1/2

I also think that 11.Qd4! Bxc3 12.bxc3 Qe7 and now Lou_Cyber's move 13.c4! is critical.

In Lou's lines I see two minor improvements for Black and come to the conclusion that after 13.c4! White is slightly better in a complicated position:

a) 13.-Qa3+ 14. Qb2 Qa5 (Black should keep the queens on board; 14... Qxb2+? 15. Kxb2 +/-) 15. cxd5 (15. Nxa8 Nxf2 16. Be2 Nxh1 17. Rxh1 Re8 unclear) 15... Nxf2 16. Be2 Na6 17. Nxa8 Nxh1 18. Rxh1 Nb4 19. Bc4 Qc5 20. a3 +/=

b) 13... g5 14. Bg3 Bg4 15. Re1 Na6 (this is probably better than the immediate check on a3; again, Black needs to keep the queens) 16. Nxa8 Qa3+ 17. Qb2 Qa5 18. Re3 Bf5 19. Be2 +/=
  
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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #11 - 03/23/10 at 23:26:35
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Thanks for all your comments.
Looking for a white opening edge I analysed the position after 12....Qe7 for a while:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. Bf4 O-O 7. Qd2 d5 8.Ndb5 Bb4 9. O-O-O c6 10. Nc7 Nxe4 11. Qd4 Bxc3 12. bxc3 Qe7

First I tried to make 13.Kb2 g5 14.Bg3 work, following Stopa-Benjamin. The queen check mentioned above seems to be too good for black. Btw not only Benjamin got a quick revenge as he told in the interview linked above, Kotronias lost one as well after 14. Nxg3 15.hxg Qxc7 16.Qf6 Qb6+ 17.Ka1 c5.

Then I had a look at other alternatives for white on move 14., but couldnīt find anything of value.

So I switched to 13.Rd3 following Nijboer - Haslinger. I donīt have the yearbook, but couldnīt work out anything good for white either after 13.Rd3.

Right now I guess the best try for a white edge might be 13.c4!? N, which hasnīt been mentioned so far.

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13. c4!?
This looks strange at first sight, because it seems to weaken the already damaged pawn shield of the king, and itīs by no means the first recommendation of my engine.
But the pawn move might make sense, because
- after Qa3+ the white queen can protect the king by Qb2 in some lines,
- there is no check on the 6th rank for black,
- white immediately threatens cxd5
- after the probably best move 13...c5 white can force an exchange of queens, thus limiting blacks counterplay and maintaining an development advantage
- last but not least itīs much simpler and less risky than the unclear positions after 13.Rd3 or 13.Kb2

13...g5
a) 13... c5 (seems to be the best option) 14. Nxd5 cxd4 (14... Qe6 15. Qe3 Na6 16. Bd3 +/-) 15. Nxe7+ Kh8
16. Rxd4 (16.Nxc8!? should give white a slight edge as well) Nxf2 17. Rg1 Nc6
18. Nxc6 bxc6 19. Be2 Bg4 20. Bxg4 Nxg4 21. Rd6 Rac8 22. Re1 Nf6 23. Re7 +/- all this may not be forced, but after the exchange of queens white keeps the initiative and should have an edge due to his more active rooks, in the final position the bishop should be better than the knight too.

b) 13... Na6 14. Nxa8 Qa3+ 15. Qb2 Qxb2+ 16. Kxb2 Nxf2 17. Be2 Nxh1 18. Rxh1
Bf5 19. Nc7 +/-

c) 13... Qa3+ 14. Qb2 Qxb2+ 15. Kxb2 Na6 16. Nxa8 Nxf2 transposes to b).

d)13...Be6 14.Nxa8 Qa3+ 15.Qb2 Qxb2+ 16.Kxb2 Nxf2 17.Be2 Nxh1 18.Rxh1 exf 19.Nc7 +/-

14. Bg3! and finally this move seems to work because black hasnīt got a check to transfer his queen to the kingside in time.

14... Bg4 (14... Nxg3? 15. hxg3 Qxc7 16. Qf6 Qd8 17. Qh6 Bf5 18. Bd3 Qd7 19. Qxg5+ Bg6 20. Rxh7+- as in Stopa - Benjamin.)

15. Re1! (15.c3? Qa3+ 16.Qb2 (16.Kb1 Nc3+ -+) Qe3+ 17.Kb1 Nc3+ -+) 15... Qa3+ 16. Qb2 Qxb2+
17. Kxb2 Nd7 18. Nxa8 Rxa8 19. f3+/-



« Last Edit: 03/24/10 at 09:23:12 by Lou_Cyber »  

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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #10 - 02/26/10 at 12:31:57
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Papageno wrote on 02/26/10 at 11:53:08:
Thanks for bringing the attention to this nice little win over Benjamin. Just a few comments.

[Event "Netherlands tt 2007/08 YB-88"]
[Site "Philadelphia USA"]
[Date "2008.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Van Haastert, Edwin"]
[Black "Broekmeulen, Jasper"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C41"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. Bf4 O-O 7. Qd2 d5 8. Ndb5 Bb4 9. O-O-O c6 10. Nc7 Nxe4 11. Qd4 Bxc3 12. bxc3 g5 13. Bg3 Nxg3 14. hxg3 Qxc7 15. Rxh7 Kxh7 16. Qf6 Rh8 17. Re1 Be6 18. Qxg5 Bf5 19. Bd3 Bg6 20.
Qf6 1-0

This short game was given in YB-88, with annotations, saying that 15.Qf6! was also winning on the spot. It shows essentially the same motif that was later used in Stopa-Benjamin. Maybe Stopa didn't have to find a single new move in the whole game.

However, there is one oddity in Stopa-Benjamin. Because of the strong move 12... Qe7(!) and 13. Kb2 being included, there is an additional defense for Black in 16... Qb6(!) 17. Ka1 c5 (intending ...Qg6). I think this favours Black. Thus, Stopa was quite lucky that Benjamin overlooked this defense or miscaculated his chances after 16... Qd8 (??) 17. Qh6 Bf5.


Benjamin talks about his loss to Stopa and a win in a later game at

http://main.uschess.org/content/view/10115/341/
  
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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #9 - 02/26/10 at 11:53:08
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Thanks for bringing the attention to this nice little win over Benjamin. Just a few comments.

[Event "Netherlands tt 2007/08 YB-88"]
[Site "Philadelphia USA"]
[Date "2008.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Van Haastert, Edwin"]
[Black "Broekmeulen, Jasper"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C41"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. Bf4 O-O 7. Qd2 d5 8. Ndb5 Bb4 9. O-O-O c6 10. Nc7 Nxe4 11. Qd4 Bxc3 12. bxc3 g5 13. Bg3 Nxg3 14. hxg3 Qxc7 15. Rxh7 Kxh7 16. Qf6 Rh8 17. Re1 Be6 18. Qxg5 Bf5 19. Bd3 Bg6 20.
Qf6 1-0

This short game was given in YB-88, with annotations, saying that 15.Qf6! was also winning on the spot. It shows essentially the same motif that was later used in Stopa-Benjamin. Maybe Stopa didn't have to find a single new move in the whole game.

However, there is one oddity in Stopa-Benjamin. Because of the strong move 12... Qe7(!) and 13. Kb2 being included, there is an additional defense for Black in 16... Qb6(!) 17. Ka1 c5 (intending ...Qg6). I think this favours Black. Thus, Stopa was quite lucky that Benjamin overlooked this defense or miscalculated his chances after 16... Qd8 (??) 17. Qh6 Bf5.
« Last Edit: 02/26/10 at 17:24:13 by Papageno »  
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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #8 - 02/26/10 at 09:39:49
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Returning to this thread:
I just found a fascinating game in the 11.Qd4, 13.Kb2 line as proposed by Papageno:

[Event "World Open"]
[Site "Philadelphia USA"]
[Date "2009.??.??"]
[White "Stopa,Ja"]
[Black "Benjamin,Joe"]
[Round "7"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2471"]
[BlackElo "2583"]
[ECO "C41"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
Be7 6. Bf4 O-O 7. Qd2 d5 8. Ndb5 Bb4 9. O-O-O
c6 10. Nc7 Nxe4 11. Qd4 Bxc3 12. bxc3 Qe7 13. Kb2
g5 14. Bg3 Nxg3 15. hxg3 Qxc7 16. Qf6 Qd8 17. Qh6
Bf5 18. Bd3 Qd7 19. Qxg5+ Bg6 20. Rxh7 Kxh7 21. Qf6
1-0
  

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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #7 - 03/24/09 at 13:33:10
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Lou_Cyber wrote on 03/24/09 at 11:39:21:
Perhaps Volokitin missed the proposed 11.Qd4 from this forum!?  Wink

If I get it right, then Karolyi proposed this move 11.Qd4 in YB/61-125 which must have appeared around the year 2002. And yet there were no players to put trust in this move for the next years.

First test for this move was the game Van Haastert - Broekmeulen, Netherlands tt 2007/08. A series of dubious black moves led to quick defeat after 11. Qd4 Bxc3 12. bxc3 g5 13. Bg3 Nxg3 14. hxg3 Qxc7 15. Rxh7! etc.  This game appeared in YB 88 (in 2008). There are some lines given that claim white advantage after the safer move 12... Qe7 as well starting with 13.Rd3.

Next test for 11.Qd4 was Nijboer - Haslinger, Essent open 2008. Black deviated form the YB88 analysis and soon reached the draw after 11. Qd4 Bxc3 12. bxc3 Qe7 13. Rd3 Be6 14. Nxa8 c5 15. Qe3 c4 16. Rd4 Qa3+ 17. Kd1 Nxc3+ 18. Kd2 Nb1+ 19. Kd1 Nc3+ 20. Kd2 Nb1+ 21. Kd1 Nc3+ 1/2-1/2

There is an additional recommendation 11. Qd4 Bxc3 12. bxc3 Qe7 13.Kb2! (Karolyi, YB 88 gives more moves) but it's far from clear to me that this really means "plus minus vertical" or some similar advantage for White.

And guessing about Volokitin: He might as well have known this move but maybe he just didn't like it particularly for white.
  
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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #6 - 03/24/09 at 11:39:21
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Another topical high-level clash in the Antoshin:

[Event "10th EICC"]
[Site "Budva MNE"]
[Date "2009.??.??"]
[White "Volokitin,And"]
[Black "Kobalia,M"]
[Round "10"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2671"]
[BlackElo "2634"]
[ECO "C41"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
Be7 6. Bf4 O-O 7. Qd2 d5 8. Ndb5 Bb4 9. O-O-O
c6 10. Nc7 Nxe4 11. Qe3 Nxc3 12. bxc3 Ba3+ 13. Kd2
Nd7 14. Nxa8 Bc5 15. Qg3 Nf6 16. Bd3 Nh5 17. Bc7
Qf6 18. Qe5 Qh6+ 19. Ke1 Bd7 20. Bf5 Re8 21. Bxd7
Rxe5+ 22. Bxe5 Qg5 23. Kf1 Qxe5 24. Re1 Qxc3 25. Nc7
Nf6 26. Bf5 Qd2 27. Re2 Qc1+ 28. Re1 Qf4  0-1

Perhaps Volokitin missed the proposed 11.Qd4 from this forum!?  Wink
  

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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #5 - 03/17/09 at 13:48:46
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smoothtactics wrote on 03/11/09 at 19:58:25:
Hi everyone. That is my first posting on the forum Smiley

A few days ago I played a game against a strong fide master, and he played the Antoshin.  I went for the Ff4 variation. It was probably a mistake considering i could only vaguely remember the critical variations : I was out of book after Bb4. The game went :

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bf4 Be7 7.Qd2 d5 8.Ndb5 Bb4 9.000 c6 10.Nc7 Nxe4 11.Qe3 Nxc3 12.bc3 Ba3+ 13.Kb1

Up to this point, it seems to be all theory, and white is supposed to be better (he will be a whole rook up!). During the game I thought I had reasonable chances to defend and have a better position. But :

13...Na6 14.Nxa8 Qa5!

played instantly by my opponent. I think after this move black has very good compensation for the sacrified material, for example 15.Bxa6 ba6 16.Ka1 (16.Nc7 Be6!) Be6! with the annoying threat d4. The point is that white cannot save the knight, so that he will only be exchange up. In the game, i made a mistake and went down very quickly :

15.c4? Ff5 (it's probably already over) 16.g4 Bg6 17.cd5 Nb4 18.Rd2 Nxc2! 19.Rxc2 Qb4+ 20.Qb3 Qe1+ 21.Bc1 Qxc1 0-1 nice mate

Any thoughts on this?


15. c4 is a feeble move. Much better might be 15. Bxa6! bxa6 16. Ka1! with a somewhat better game. The possible line would be: 16...Be6 17. Bc7 Qa4 18. c4 Rxa8 19. Qb3 Qb4 20. Rd3 Qe7 21. Qxa3 Qxc7 22. cxd5 cxd5 23. Qc3 Qd6 24. Qd4 Rc8 25. Rc3 +/=

  
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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #4 - 03/15/09 at 22:36:42
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I gave the only bits claimed to be good for White after 14...Qa5, I think.  The main thrust of the article, by the way, was that 11. Qd4 (instead of 11. Qe3) is apparently good for White.  The lead game involved a young Dutch FM losing as Black in that line; coincidentally I had noticed this encounter from the Dutch league a week ago, in which he turned to 7...Nc6 and won a rather thematic-looking game.

[Event "Meesterklasse"]
[Site "LSG-HMC Calder"]
[Date "2009.03.07"]
[Round "6.10"]
[White "Van Oosterom, Chiel"]
[Black "Broekmeulen, Jasper"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C41"]
[WhiteElo "2420"]
[BlackElo "2325"]
[PlyCount "60"]
[EventDate "2008.09.27"]
[WhiteTeam "LSG"]
[BlackTeam "HMC Calder"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "NED"]
[BlackTeamCountry "NED"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. Bf4 O-O 7. Qd2 Nc6 8.
O-O-O Nxd4 9. Qxd4 a6 10. f3 b5 11. g4 c5 12. Qd2 b4 13. Ne2 Be6 14. Kb1 Qa5
15. b3 Rfd8 16. Ng3 d5 17. e5 Nd7 18. Bg5 Bxg5 19. Qxg5 h6 20. Qh5 c4 21. Nf5
Qa3 22. Ka1 c3 23. Rb1 Rdc8 24. Ne7+ Kf8 25. Nxc8 Rxc8 26. Qh4 Ke8 27. Qe1 Rc5
28. Qc1 Qxa2+ 29. Kxa2 Ra5+ 30. Qa3 Rxa3# 0-1
  
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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #3 - 03/15/09 at 21:31:57
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So it is time to update my database & bookshelf  Embarrassed - thanks for the hint! However, as far as I can see (without knowing Yearbook 88), 15.Qg3 Bf5 16.Nc7 Nc5 (iso Qb6+) is good for Black, and 15.Bxa6 bxa6 16.c4 dxc4 17.Be5 can lead to a draw: 17...Re8 18.Bc3 (Black threatened f6) 18...Qb5+ 19.Ka1 Rxe3 20.Rd8+ Bf8 21.fxe3 Qb7.
  
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Re: Antoshin : improvement for black in the 6.Bf4 line
Reply #2 - 03/15/09 at 20:52:25
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14...Qa5 has been played at least a couple of times since 2007.  There is some analysis of this in Yearbook 88 (which came out several months ago), where it is claimed to be better for White (15. Qg3!? Bf5 16. Nc7 Qb6 17. Nb5 ą or 15. Bxa6 ba 16. c4! dc 17. Be5 +=).
  
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