Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation: (Read 26649 times)
Zwischenzugzwang
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
& chess pubs!

Posts: 380
Location: Zotzenbach
Joined: 06/14/11
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #25 - 11/25/11 at 07:48:13
Post Tools
Hello everybody!

In the QGDEx, one sometimes encounters positions of this type:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

There are some possible modifications: The white e-P might be already on e5, the dark-squared bishops might have been exchanged, the queen's side pawns might have been moved, the white queen's rook might be on the d- or e-file and so on.

As far as I can see, the most obvious plan for White is trying to break the blockade of the black knights by exchanging them and then pushing the f-pawn (after e4-e5), whereas Black might either try to get some counterplay on the queen's side resp. in the center with c6-c5 and / or something like the queen lunge Qg5 with possibilities on the king's side.

Do some of you have some experience with this sort of position? What are the best plans? Which pieces should be exchanged, which ones kept? Which factors are important for evaluating the position? Can you recommend some exemplary games?

Thanks in advance and best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #24 - 11/23/11 at 02:37:50
Post Tools
White has a few extra options.
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 c5 7.Rb1 and 7.a3.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 687
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #23 - 11/22/11 at 21:38:34
Post Tools
What´s wrong with Nxd5, instead of exd5 actually? Often it transforms to positions of the improved Tarrasch, a defence, which is good playable?!
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Zwischenzugzwang
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
& chess pubs!

Posts: 380
Location: Zotzenbach
Joined: 06/14/11
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #22 - 11/21/11 at 21:37:06
Post Tools
Hello, friends of the QGDEx!

Having done some homeworks with friendly support by Houdini (my impression is that these engines are really strong in this type of position, when it opens up a little bit; nethertheless I won't give a pure computer output), here are some results of my research. The starting position is reached after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 0-0 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.Qc2 c6 9.Nge2 Re8 10.0-0 Nf8 11.f3 Nh5 12.Bxe7 Rxe7!? 13.Qd2

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

My impression is that 13.Qd2 is stronger than the immediate e3-e4, my doubts in 13.e4 were explained in an earlier post. Qd2 keeps some control over f4, in some variations it opens a way for the bishop to switch to the diagonal a2-g8, and, most importantly, it covers indirectly d4.

I've checked all the black moves which I've at least three games of in my database, these are 13...f5, 13...g6, 13...Be6, 13...Nf6, and 13...Ne6.

My analysis is included in the attachement (I hope it works!).

Some remarks:
The line after 13...Be6 is from Lautier, it seems to lead to a slight advantage for White. I haven't checked if a plan involving e3-e4 is possible and good.
If Black is too keen on stopping e3-e4, it might fire back, as the variation after 13...f5 shows (partly taken from Schandorff).
After 13...g6 and 13...Nf6 White can continue with e3-e4; due to the black queen still on d8 Black often does not take (immediately) on e4, but sometimes White can then exchange on d5, giving him the better bishop (this happens after 13...g6 14.e4 Ng7).
After 13...Ne6, the move e3-e4 needs more preparation, as an immediate 14.e4 doesn't seem to give White any advantage, because Black answers 14...dxe4 and White can't recapture with the pawn. Anyway, after some preparation this move is again possible.

I would be grateful for any comments!

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

ChessPub.pgn ( 2 KB | 320 Downloads )

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Zwischenzugzwang
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
& chess pubs!

Posts: 380
Location: Zotzenbach
Joined: 06/14/11
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #21 - 11/18/11 at 18:11:18
Post Tools
Thanks so far for your comments. I'll try some analysis of the position after 13.Qd2 and hope I'll have something ready tomorrow.

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dink Heckler
God Member
*****
Offline


Love-Forty

Posts: 897
Joined: 02/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #20 - 11/18/11 at 10:14:00
Post Tools
I'm not that au fait with the theory of this line, as I play 0-0-0 in the QGDx, but I always have the feeling that a very unpleasant way to play from a practical point of view is to delay e4 as long as possible...play all the preparatory moves, and then fiddle around some more. Poor Black has to cogitate about the 'threat' of e4 every move, make sure nothing's dropping off, or a flash attack arising out of the blue...in this case, ther threat really seems to be stronger than the execution. Hence, I would lean towards investigating 13 Qd2.
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #19 - 11/17/11 at 23:57:26
Post Tools
Nieuweboer,M - Dubois,C [D36]
em WS/H/143, 2008



½-½

I posted this game in another thread, but the only suggestion for improvement I got was 13.Qd2, so don't bother looking it up.
This game together with another one in which I got nothing made me reconsider my repertoire.
With 4.Bg5/6.Rc1 I have 2/2. That may have everything to do with the (lack of) strength of my opponents, but it's still encouraging.
I have never looked at 14...Ne6 iso 14...Bg4.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Zwischenzugzwang
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
& chess pubs!

Posts: 380
Location: Zotzenbach
Joined: 06/14/11
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #18 - 11/17/11 at 21:16:41
Post Tools
Although this thread is quite dead at the moment, there might still be some chess friends interested in this variation. As I'm actually revisiting my QGD repertoire, I'd appreciate your opinion!

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 0-0 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.Nge2 Re8 9.0-0 Nf8 10.Qc2 c6 11.f3 Nh5, we reach the following position:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Of course, White is more or less forced to exchange the bishops (12.Bxe7), and then Black has a choice what piece to recapture with. "Normal" is 12...Qxe7, but in about 25 % of the games he chooses the rook: 12...Rxe7.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
(Sorry for providing another diagram after just two plies, I'm sure most of you would be able to imagine the resulting position also without it!)

Black's heavy pieces now look a bit clumsy, but one advantage of the rook move is a stronger control over d4.

From this position, Schandorff (Playing the Queen's Gambit, p. 24) cites one game of his own where he continued with 13.Qd2, but mentions that 13.e4 is "more straightforward" (indeed, it's the more common move) and also cites the game Aleksandrov-Denker, Reno 1999. There follows 13.e4 dxe4 14.fxe4 Bg4.

The last move is the reason why Lautier (in his CI-annotations to the game Lautier-Klovans, Germany [probably Bundesliga?] 1997) dismissed 13.e4.

In my opinion, 13.e4 is indeed dubious, but not so much because of 14...Bg4, but because of 14...Ne6. This move is also mentioned by Schandorff, but he continues only with "or 14...Ne6 15.d5 Nc5 16.Rad1":

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
I'm not sure what to think about the resulting pawn structure. Normally White tries to push the e-pawn, not the d-pawn, but that was not possible here as 15.d5 was forced because of Black's queen still on d8. In the resulting structure, the d-pawn might certainly become dangerous, but the e-pawn has lost all its mobility and is definitely a weakness. Now I like 16...Qb6 (removing the queen from the d-file with gain of tempo) 17.Kh1 Bg4 18.Bc4, as in I.Sokolov-Van der Sterren, Netherlands 1995, and now the novelty 18...Nf6:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
This move covers the f-file and keeps also d7 under control in case White want to push his d-pawn. What is your opinion?

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #17 - 11/05/11 at 11:53:33
Post Tools
Yes, it might be good with some new coverage.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Zwischenzugzwang
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
& chess pubs!

Posts: 380
Location: Zotzenbach
Joined: 06/14/11
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #16 - 11/02/11 at 06:39:56
Post Tools
Hello everybody, dear Ruslan

next year in February it'll be ten years since the last update of the QGD Exchange with Nge2 (QGD/8, QGD/9) Sad.

I'd really love some new coverage of this line - it's nicely complex, but compared to other complex lines, in the QGDEx a lot still depends from understanding, and it always leads to interesting fighting chess! Even if it's not played at the highest levels at the moment, there are still some new games out there from strong players.

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang

  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jupp53
God Member
*****
Offline


be

Posts: 988
Location: Frankfurt/Main
Joined: 01/04/09
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #15 - 12/02/09 at 14:58:57
Post Tools
Some 60 games with great masters until 1935 inclusive. Maybe some of them are useful?
  

D36.pgn ( 47 KB | 320 Downloads )

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nimzo5
Junior Member
**
Offline


d4!

Posts: 92
Location: USA
Joined: 09/06/09
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #14 - 12/01/09 at 21:16:10
Post Tools
agree on Botvinnik- Keres.
  

1950 Fide - 2050 if you omit Sunday Morning first rounds Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3276
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #13 - 04/05/09 at 08:35:44
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 04/03/09 at 17:06:16:
Stigma wrote on 04/02/09 at 20:46:05:


Interesting. The classical advice is to start with the 'classics' (in this case probably Botvinnik and Kasparov) and move forward, by the logic of "ontogeny recapturing phylogeny" which may still be a better idea in chess than in biology. What's the benefit in reversing the order?


Well in academic research, it's a widely recognized principle that you start from most recent papers and work your way back through the citations.  I believe the same applies to chess.

The problem with working your way up from the bottom of the tree is that there are too many dead branches.  

I mean fine, Botvinnik-Capablanca tells you something about how to play against the Nimzo, but looking at that game does a lot more for your positional understanding than it does for your anti-Nimzo preparation, even if you play Botvinnik's system.


I don't see why "positional understanding" and "opening preparation" must be thought of as separate fields of chess training. I've long thought that limiting attention to those classics that are directly relevant to one's repertoire is a useful shortcut for many time-pressed amateurs to take; in practice this will be more efficient than studying lots of classical games whether they are relevant or not. It has become standard practice for me whenever I'm interested in a new opening to search through the opening indexes of the classical games collections I have for example games. Usually older games are easier to understand from scratch than newer ones, since the play in recent games will be based on nuances discovered by earlier successes and failures.

Of course there are dozens of masterpieces by Alekhine, Tal, Karpov and others that I wouldn't want to miss out on for such a pragmatic reason, but then I'm a bit of a chess addict!

Maybe the best of both worlds is to have a coach or author who knows the opening deeply pick out those historical games that are most relevant for understanding the current ones, and arranging them in a thematic or chronological narrative. There are a few good books that do this, but you can never be assured of finding one on the specific opening you want to study. For the QGD Exchange I think Kasparov's Queen's Gambit DVD is the best thematic introduction; he also covered many of the same games in the "Predecessors" series.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4977
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #12 - 04/04/09 at 21:49:24
Post Tools
Aside from that 1988 game, the other one I immediately think of is Botvinnik-Keres.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
Reply #11 - 04/04/09 at 21:17:52
Post Tools
Regarding Markovich's suggestion of going through the most recent examples:

I agree completely with his advice in this forum.   

However, if my audience was a group of novices, I would suggest a sampling of classic games to familiarize the players with positions that the Chess publicans should already know. 

In the case of D36 with White playing Nge2, the opening ideas are relatively new, so one really doesn't have to go any earlier than 1988 to find White's main ideas and the conversation that arose from there.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo