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Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? (Read 24530 times)

Dink Heckler God Member Offline Love-Forty Posts: 902 Joined: 02/01/07 Gender:	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #23 - 04/02/09 at 11:47:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Taylor's book contains such gems as game reference Taylor - NN, Budapest subway, 2006, and some truly crappy analysis and wildly optimistic assessments. A great book to get the barbecue started with.

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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #22 - 04/01/09 at 10:02:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bibs wrote on 04/01/09 at 04:57:21: Markovich wrote on 03/31/09 at 20:35:51: Ender wrote on 03/31/09 at 19:47:31: It's quite interesting to see if white can hope for an advantage in those 'quasi-maroczy' positions. Many black palyers dont like such positions. Anyway, what's if black plays e5 instead of c5? i think this is playable alternative. The standard answer is fxe5 followed by d5, which many people think guarantees some advantage to White. As Markovich notes, this is given as the standard response. This line is also covered in Dangerous Weapons. Regarding the statement regarding black players not liking maroczys - how do you know? Simply 'casual empiricism'? I was always quite happy. Ok i ordered my copy of Dangerous Weapons. I think many of KID-player don't like maroczy set-up since this is just different kind of play than king's indian. Much more positional and white don't risk so much as in Bayonnet and other. Black do't have so active plan and so easy counterplay. MNb wrote on 04/01/09 at 02:03:41: Ender wrote on 03/31/09 at 19:47:31: It's quite interesting to see if white can hope for an advantage in those 'quasi-maroczy' positions. Many black palyers dont like such positions. At the other hand f2-f4 is not a popular move in the real Maroczy-Bind vs. the Accelerated Dragon. Yess, You are right. I played Accelerated Dragon as black for some time so maybe line recommanded by Taylor will suit my style. Thanks for all responses.

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Bibs YaBB Moderator Offline Posts: 2345 Joined: 10/24/06	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #21 - 04/01/09 at 04:57:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 03/31/09 at 20:35:51: Ender wrote on 03/31/09 at 19:47:31: It's quite interesting to see if white can hope for an advantage in those 'quasi-maroczy' positions. Many black palyers dont like such positions. Anyway, what's if black plays e5 instead of c5? i think this is playable alternative. The standard answer is fxe5 followed by d5, which many people think guarantees some advantage to White. As Markovich notes, this is given as the standard response. This line is also covered in Dangerous Weapons. Regarding the statement regarding black players not liking maroczys - how do you know? Simply 'casual empiricism'? I was always quite happy.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #20 - 04/01/09 at 02:03:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ender wrote on 03/31/09 at 19:47:31: It's quite interesting to see if white can hope for an advantage in those 'quasi-maroczy' positions. Many black palyers dont like such positions. At the other hand f2-f4 is not a popular move in the real Maroczy-Bind vs. the Accelerated Dragon.

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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #19 - 03/31/09 at 20:35:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ender wrote on 03/31/09 at 19:47:31: It's quite interesting to see if white can hope for an advantage in those 'quasi-maroczy' positions. Many black palyers dont like such positions. Anyway, what's if black plays e5 instead of c5? i think this is playable alternative. The standard answer is fxe5 followed by d5, which many people think guarantees some advantage to White.

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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #18 - 03/31/09 at 19:47:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 03/31/09 at 17:33:09: Taylor's book purports to be about the 4PA, and in a sense, it is. But he transposes into what is essentially a Maroczy where White plays f4 instead of f3. That is to say, he doesn't push his d-pawn after ...c5. This is not really the 4PA as most people think of it. At any rate, I have no interest in that way of playing it, which is why I didn't buy his book once I had browsed it in the bookstore. Personally I would recommend Vaiser's book, though it's getting a little old. It's quite interesting to see if white can hope for an advantage in those 'quasi-maroczy' positions. Many black palyers dont like such positions. Anyway, what's if black plays e5 instead of c5? i think this is playable alternative.

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Nelson Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 77 Joined: 04/12/08	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #17 - 03/31/09 at 17:46:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi Bonsai if you look at the other thread I think you'll find 10...f5 a better try for black Regards, Nelson


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #16 - 03/31/09 at 17:33:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Taylor's book purports to be about the 4PA, and in a sense, it is. But he transposes into what is essentially a Maroczy where White plays f4 instead of f3. That is to say, he doesn't push his d-pawn after ...c5. This is not really the 4PA as most people think of it. At any rate, I have no interest in that way of playing it, which is why I didn't buy his book once I had browsed it in the bookstore. Personally I would recommend Vaiser's book, though it's getting a little old.

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Bibs YaBB Moderator Offline Posts: 2345 Joined: 10/24/06	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #15 - 03/31/09 at 12:45:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	I didn't think Taylor's was worth buying. It got some shocking reviews. Start with Flear in DW:KID.


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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #14 - 03/31/09 at 12:13:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bibs wrote on 03/31/09 at 10:49:15: If there was a definite advantage then the KID would be dead presumably. But 4 pawns - as worthy as any approach. Unfortunate wording of the question aside, strongly suggest you pick up a copy of Dangerous Weapons: KID. Good range of material contained therein. Best in the DW series thus far I humbly opine. Should be something in there for you Ender - Flear's stuff on 4 pawns may tickle your fancy. Thank You Bibs. I'll check this book. And waht about T.Taylor's book on beating KID? Is this a good book?

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Bibs YaBB Moderator Offline Posts: 2345 Joined: 10/24/06	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #13 - 03/31/09 at 10:49:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	If there was a definite advantage then the KID would be dead presumably. But 4 pawns - as worthy as any approach. Unfortunate wording of the question aside, strongly suggest you pick up a copy of Dangerous Weapons: KID. Good range of material contained therein. Best in the DW series thus far I humbly opine. Should be something in there for you Ender - Flear's stuff on 4 pawns may tickle your fancy.


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cyronix Ex Member	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #12 - 03/30/09 at 15:04:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think black is quite fine in the 4-pawns, at least theoretically. But in the end you better chose a system that suits you than to go for a theoretical advantage, at least if there the difference of advantage is < 0.5. As black I rather play a benoni with +0.6 for white than a Queen's Gambit Declined with +0.2 for white.


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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #11 - 03/30/09 at 10:39:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 03/30/09 at 02:09:26: That is the part I understand. The part I don't understand is why you would consider the Four Pawns Attack. It is very likely that you will meet a couple of lines where White also NEEDS to sacrifice to maintain equality. That is because of its sharp and ambitious nature: White spends two tempi to establish a space advantage and a broad centre. With your motivation I would say you'd better look somewhere else: Sämisch, Awerbach, Seirawan to name a few. I also think there is no advantage in samisch+ it's too theoretical. I found Krasenkow and 4 pawns interesting because those variations are not so well-known and there is much place to impove. But in Nh5 line it's too easy for black to get advantage and Nh5 was played against me in 4 last KID games (it's the most logical move). I lost 3 games... So maybe 4 pawns is better try. In Krasenkow it's just too easy for black to get equal game.

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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #10 - 03/30/09 at 02:09:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	That is the part I understand. The part I don't understand is why you would consider the Four Pawns Attack. It is very likely that you will meet a couple of lines where White also NEEDS to sacrifice to maintain equality. That is because of its sharp and ambitious nature: White spends two tempi to establish a space advantage and a broad centre. With your motivation I would say you'd better look somewhere else: Sämisch, Awerbach, Seirawan to name a few.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #9 - 03/29/09 at 21:35:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 03/29/09 at 21:25:24: Ender wrote on 03/29/09 at 11:53:14: I still think 7.Nh5 is eqalizer. I don't argue that your line is playabe, it's just too risky. I want variation where i can choose between some continuations. This strikes me as a bit odd. Isn't the Four Pawns full of lines in which both sides are walking thightropes? Maybe, but in line advoated by Nelson i NEED to sacrifice something in order to get only equal game. That's why I'm looking for something else.

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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #8 - 03/29/09 at 21:25:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ender wrote on 03/29/09 at 11:53:14: I still think 7.Nh5 is eqalizer. I don't argue that your line is playabe, it's just too risky. I want variation where i can choose between some continuations. This strikes me as a bit odd. Isn't the Four Pawns full of lines in which both sides are walking tightropes?
	« Last Edit: 03/30/09 at 01:57:12 by MNb »
	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #7 - 03/29/09 at 21:10:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Everytime I choose the KI I hope that White plays something overextending and overcommitting - the 4 Pawns is the best example. White goes for the kill and burns all his bridges - let's just wait for the counterchance. Perhaps there is a theoretical advantage in the 4PA (consult Vaisser) but in a practical game it mostly turns out to be a mess where Black has his fair share of chances.


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #6 - 03/29/09 at 20:18:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	If White had "a way to get advantage" in the Four Pawns, it would presumably be a lot more common than it is. I mean, even the Classical seems usually regarded as leading to equal or unclear positions in the best-play lines.


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Bonsai God Member Offline Posts: 622 Joined: 03/13/04 Gender:	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #5 - 03/29/09 at 18:47:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Interestingly Markos lost as black last October in the following game: [Event "WMSG Rapid Pair 1st"] [Site "Beijing"] [Date "2008.10.09"] [Round "2"] [White "Dao Thien Hai"] [Black "Markos, Jan"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "E90"] [WhiteElo "2510"] [BlackElo "2557"] [PlyCount "73"] [EventType "swiss (rapid)"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. h3 e5 7. d5 Nh5 8. g3 a5 9. Be2 Na6 10. Be3 Bd7 11. Nd2 Nf6 12. g4 c6 13. h4 Ne8 14. h5 Bf6 15. Nf1 Bg5 16. Qd2 h6 17. hxg6 fxg6 18. Bxg5 hxg5 19. f3 Qf6 20. O-O-O c5 21. Ne3 Rf7 22.Rh3 Rh7 23. Rdh1 Rxh3 24. Rxh3 Nac7 25. Kb1 Ng7 26. Rh6 Kf7 27. Nf5 Rg8 28. Nd1 b6 29. Nf2 Be8 30. Nh3 Nxf5 31. Nxg5+ Ke7 32. exf5 Qf8 33. Nh7 Qf7 34. Qg5+ Kd7 35. Nf6+ Kc8 36. Nxg8 Qxg8 37. Qf6 1-0


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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #4 - 03/29/09 at 11:53:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nelson wrote on 03/29/09 at 11:37:33: Ender, I've already offered you a playable suggestion against the 7..Nh5 line but you've yet to indicate why it's no good apart from ...Ng2 check and what seemed to be an incorrect evaluation based on material and statics. Have all Grandmasters given up this line because of ...Nh5 ?? It seems odd that move 7 prompts you to give up a variation completely. Regards, Nelson. Hi Nelson! You give me line where i need to sacrifice material and i don't like to n such situation where i NEED to sacrifice something and don't have alternatives. I still think 7.Nh5 is eqalizer. I don't argue that your line is playabe, it's just too risky. I want variation where i can choose between some continuations.

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Nelson Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 77 Joined: 04/12/08	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #3 - 03/29/09 at 11:37:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ender, I've already offered you a playable suggestion against the 7..Nh5 line but you've yet to indicate why it's no good apart from ...Ng2 check and what seemed to be an incorrect evaluation based on material and statics. Have all Grandmasters given up this line because of ...Nh5 ?? It seems odd that move 7 prompts you to give up a variation completely. Regards, Nelson.


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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #2 - 03/29/09 at 10:54:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Novosibirsk wrote on 03/29/09 at 10:05:05: Just before you abandomn the Makogonov...have you studied Krasenkows games in this variation ? He is a slaughtermachine with a 80% score Yes, but he don't play this variation recently. I think the reason may be 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 d6 5 Nf3 0-0 6 h3 e5 7 d5 Nh5 . I think white is no better there, and black has an easy game.

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Novosibirsk Full Member Offline Chess is my life! Posts: 111 Joined: 04/26/08	Re: Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? Reply #1 - 03/29/09 at 10:05:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Just before you abandomn the Makogonov...have you studied Krasenkows games in this variation ? He is a slaughtermachine with a 80% score

	“I don’t play chess anymore, I play Fischer Random. It is a much better game, more challenge. Chess is a dead game, it is played out. Fischer Random is a version of chess that I developed or invented.
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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Is there any advantage in four pawns attack? 03/28/09 at 20:52:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dear chess friends! After couple of months I definitely gave up Krasenkov/Makagonov system, since black have nice possibilites with quick Nh5 (as pointed out in a recent Markos book). Now I'm thinking about 4 pawns attack. Is this line theoretically betterer than Krasenkow/Makagonov? Is there any way to get advantage there? Or maybe someone can recommand me some books on this variation? I know Konikowski's and Vaisser's books. Which is better? Thank You Ender

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