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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player (Read 19979 times)
GabrielGale
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #25 - 10/09/15 at 06:01:54
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Luke McShane is making a lot of moves (7 moves from move 26 to 36) with the knight, it is like a one-person army hopping everywhere. Not sure it is achieving anything.
  

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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #24 - 10/09/15 at 05:06:54
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Guys, live right now, the world's strongest amateur GM, Luke McShane, is playing Rd 2 of the Millionaire Chess Open (https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/millionaire-chess-2015-open/2/1/7 and Luke essayed the 3 g3Anti-Sicilian against an e6 Sicilian.

It is the 3d5 5Nc6 line with an IQP and according to Kornev, similar to the Tarrasch except W has pawn on c2 and not e2.
Black has opted for the 6Bd6, 7Nge7 setup which Kornev says is not so active.

1 e4 c5
2 Nf3 e6
3 g3 d5
4 exd5 exd5
5 d4 Nc6
6 Bg2 Bd6
7 O-O Nge7
8 Nc3
Luke deviates from Kornev who prefers the Knight to head to b3-sq to control the d4-sq. Kornev follows Short-Ivanchuk, Wijk aan Zee 2010 game.
I found 5 games with 8 Nc3. But no games with 80-0 but a Glek-Tregubov game after 9 dxc5 Bxc5.
Luke looks like playing against IQP in classical fashion with blockade on 12 Nd3.
Luke plays 13 Re1 whilst Glek played 13 a3 in 2002 although Gkex=k did play Re1 on move 14 and Luke played a3 on move 16. But the position changed as both players adopt a different setup from Glek-Tregubov.
Luke has put booth rooks on e-file and began attack on K-side.

Am glad Luke is back playing as he plays the KIA, the Closed Sicilian including the Big Clamp etc but the danger for us club players is he makes it look easy as he is so good!
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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GabrielGale
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #23 - 09/29/15 at 11:27:49
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JEH wrote on 09/28/15 at 10:10:57:
Against 2. ...e6, I've gone for 3. d3 myself when not playing an open Sicilian as I've thought 3. g3 could just be met with d5, so I've not looked into the IQP and d4 in one go lines myself, but they look an interesting option.

Does the Kornev book cover avoiding KIA transpositions?



Not at al sure and it will take me a bit of time to figure it out as I have to refresh my memory of KIA structures and positions.

@TN, thanks for the headsup. Perhaps will be good at this stage of my chess learning to widen my experience of pawn structures.

Will try to report back once I have done some more investigating. If anyone has any other tips on learning the structures and positions after the mainline with 4Nf6, it will be much appreciated.
  

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A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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TN
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #22 - 09/29/15 at 01:29:32
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Imo 3.c3 is the most critical of the Anti-Sicilians, but it's a matter of taste of course. 3.g3 leads to a wider range of pawn structures than 3.d3 if that's your thing.
  

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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #21 - 09/28/15 at 15:42:55
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Well, 3. c4 is a "book" move, but surely not commonly leading to a hedgehog.

(Incidentally it reminds me of a game Domenech-Flohr, which appears in a "new" book by Irving Chernev ...)
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #20 - 09/28/15 at 14:58:09
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Could 3.c4!? be an idea going for some hedgehog
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #19 - 09/28/15 at 10:10:57
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Against 2. ...e6, I've gone for 3. d3 myself when not playing an open Sicilian as I've thought 3. g3 could just be met with d5, so I've not looked into the IQP and d4 in one go lines myself, but they look an interesting option.

Does the Kornev book cover avoiding KIA transpositions?

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #18 - 09/28/15 at 01:46:41
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JEH wrote on 09/26/15 at 12:54:40:
With d3, you get an additional KIA option against the e6 Sicilian as oppossed to the long KIA line in the French which involves Qe2 and holding back on the b1 Knight so it can go to c3, and also play c4 to punch Black's queenside counter play on the nose. Otherwise, you can just play it like a KIA vs French.

With g3, you are holding the option to go d4 in one go. As menioned above, you allow 3. ...d5 and play vs an IQP, which you might like. Also a good set up vs the KIA is c5/e6/Nc6/g6/Nge7, however 3. g3 causes difficulties for Black to get this set up

If you are playing the KIA vs the French, d3 seems more logical, but if not, then either option seems about the same to me, but if going with d3, use Qe2.

N.B. I think in all cases Black should equalise, and French and e6 Sicilian players seem well prepared for the KIA nowadays in my experience.


Thanks JEH (btw, congrats on 10th year on the Forum, I am 3 yrs behind but not as many posts! Grin) Thanks for the good advice.

The example for Nge7 is good. As explained in reply to katar, I probably won't go for the KIA.

In the Kornev book, the other "mainline" is of course d5 and in one Var, 5Nf6, White plays agst IQP,
In 2nd Var, 5Nc6 6Bg4, there is a doubled up IQP pawns and an endgame with N vs B. Hmmmm, perhaps a study of Fischer games with Knights? (I think I got that right?);
In 5Nc6 6Nf6 Var, Kornev does not advocate classical plan of Knight blockade with Knight manoeuvre Nb1-d2-b3-d4 but instead recommends capturing IQP.

Kornev in his conclusion index mentioned that the d5 Var results in Tarrasch-like IQP positions but with pawn on c2 not on e2.

The d5 mainline is mainly in line with my proposed study of French Tarrasch IQPs with Denis Yevseev's book. So I think should not be a problem.

But with other mainline 3Nc6,
Kornev concludes that centre is closed, play is focused on flanks. White must watch out for "B's counter play connected with f7-f6, b7-b6, a7-a5, Ba6 and b6-b5.

So same question as to katar, any suggestions on studying the resulting positions arising from the "mainline"?

Is this similar to a Qe2 KIA as you recommend and which kylemeister mentioned is a KIA a tempo up? Should I be looking also at KIA Qe2 games as well to study the positions? I am afraid I have forgotten most of my KIA stuff (memory problems!)

BTW, in the position you posted with 4g6, Kornev addressed this and gives Internet game Starosek vs Pugachov 2004. Kornev concludes a 11.0-0+/= as B does not have compensation for pawn.

Interestingly the Starosek-Pugachov game proceeds to a Q-less middle game with a White's Q-side pawn majority. And of course this reminded me of Evgeny Sveshnikov's c3 Sicilian book where he has an entire chapter on this Q-less W's Q-side pawn majority structure. Hmmmm, I might just have answered partially my own question i.e. if B plays 4g6.

But if 4Nf6???

Thanks again, JEH and kylemeister.
  

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A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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GabrielGale
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #17 - 09/28/15 at 00:54:37
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katar wrote on 09/26/15 at 06:59:49:
3.d3 and 3.g3 can transpose of course, depending on your intentions.

Looks like Kornev wants to go c3 and d2-d4-- that means his lines will be more open. d2-d3 lines will be more closed. You opened 1.e4 so i presume you prefer open to closed. But, it is up to you.

3.d3 is almost a complete K.I.A. repertoire against the French. So, if you like the K.I.A. against the French, it is a two-for-one. I have always considered the KIA to be murky and difficult.

I will mention also that the Dangerous Weapons: Anti-Sicilians book has a chapter on 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 and one critical line from that book is 3...d5 4.exd exd 5.Bg2 Qe7+ 6.Kf1 which has fallen out of favor as people now usually play 5.d4 instead.

As mentioned in this thread, above, 3.c3 and 3.b3 are fine moves as well. I heard a strange rumor that 3.d4 is even playable, but i cannot confirm this.


Thanks katar for your reply and advice.

I am still learning 1 e4 as part of chess education though my interest is really with 1 Nf3, g3, Bg2, 0-0, structures. I am also "helping" a group of children 7-11 yo to learn chess and getting them to learn 1 e4. It was/is a good opportunity to learn with them as well.
Hence Open games. [digression: For the children I won't recommend Bb5 Anti-Sicilian. Am undecided with c3 Anti-Sicilian or d4 Open Sicilian. c3 Sicilian can be combined with others to focus on IQP-based repertoire a la Dr Dave (from the UK)].

Agst French, I am almost certain I want to learn the IQP-based Tarrasch a la Denis Yevseev's French book .
That is one agst KIA. Also I learned a bit of KIA when teaching my son years ago and whilst it is a Nf3, g3, Bg2, 0-0 structure, not very happy with the resulting positions.
Also reason for my slight discomfort with Gawain Jones otherwise excellent book.

Thanks for the tip on DW book. Did not know of it. Will have a look for the book and possibly borrow from a friend.

And yes, c3, b3 and indeed d4 are good moves as well Grin but that is the reason chess is fascinating for most of us on this forum, eh? the almost infinite (humanly speaking!) possible ways of playing the positions.

Re Open positions. I need to work on understanding the resulting structure and plans after the opening in the "mainline" I posted. Any suggestions/advice?

At the very least, I can see that Bh3 attacks the weak pawn e6 Smiley

BTW, thanks for your work with the SCID vs PC databases. Very much appreciated. Is a new one due soon? There are still some doubles in the database. Not sure how to get rid of them.
  

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A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #16 - 09/26/15 at 15:44:43
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Indeed a tempo-up version of the old possibility 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d3 Nc6 4. g3 g6 5. d4 is attractive.
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #15 - 09/26/15 at 12:54:40
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With d3, you get an additional KIA option against the e6 Sicilian as oppossed to the long KIA line in the French which involves Qe2 and holding back on the b1 Knight so it can go to c3, and also play c4 to punch Black's queenside counter play on the nose. Otherwise, you can just play it like a KIA vs French.

With g3, you are holding the option to go d4 in one go. As menioned above, you allow 3. ...d5 and play vs an IQP, which you might like. Also a good set up vs the KIA is c5/e6/Nc6/g6/Nge7, however 3. g3 causes difficulties for Black to get this set up



If you are playing the KIA vs the French, d3 seems more logical, but if not, then either option seems about the same to me, but if going with d3, use Qe2.

N.B. I think in all cases Black should equalise, and French and e6 Sicilian players seem well prepared for the KIA nowadays in my experience.

« Last Edit: 09/26/15 at 16:36:47 by JEH »  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #14 - 09/26/15 at 06:59:49
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3.d3 and 3.g3 can transpose of course, depending on your intentions.

Looks like Kornev wants to go c3 and d2-d4-- that means his lines will be more open. d2-d3 lines will be more closed. You opened 1.e4 so i presume you prefer open to closed. But, it is up to you.

3.d3 is almost a complete K.I.A. repertoire against the French. So, if you like the K.I.A. against the French, it is a two-for-one. I have always considered the KIA to be murky and difficult.

I will mention also that the Dangerous Weapons: Anti-Sicilians book has a chapter on 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 and one critical line from that book is 3...d5 4.exd exd 5.Bg2 Qe7+ 6.Kf1 which has fallen out of favor as people now usually play 5.d4 instead.

As mentioned in this thread, above, 3.c3 and 3.b3 are fine moves as well. I heard a strange rumor that 3.d4 is even playable, but i cannot confirm this.
  

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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #13 - 09/26/15 at 06:19:59
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Hi All,

After a hiatus, I thought I will post something a bit more serious. Not sure whether to post it here where the thread heading is perfect or in associated thread on the Alexei Kornev's book, Rossolimo and Friends (http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1416056543). But here it is:

Been toying with what to do as 1 e4 player vs Sicilian. The bigger debate on Open Sicilian vs Anti-Sicilian and if latter, which Anti-Sicilian. I have been attracted, for some inexplicable reason, to the Bb5 systems, Rossolimo and the Moscow (perhaps the fact that Viorel Bologan wrote a book on the Rossolimo is part of the attraction as I am a big fan of his! and his teacher, Chebanenko!). Am aware of Gawain Jones' book, had a browse and looked good! but was unsure about his recommendation of 3 d3 against the 2e6. Bologan's book does not cover 2e6 as it is not a repertoire book.
So, when I saw that Alexei Kornev had a book on the Rossolimo, and on further checking saw he recommends a 3.g3 system, my heart soared. I like fianchettoes!

So, I would like to ask ChessPubbers, what do you think of the recommendation as between 3 d3 a la Gawain Jones vs 3 g3 a la Alexei Kornev.

Kornev says 3 g3 is pretty intensely played in recent times (Magnus Carlsen!! Mickey Adams, ) and still more to be explored.

Can Chesspubbers advise on:
1) Middlegame plans for 3 d3 vs 3 g3, which is easier to play?
2) pawn structures?
3) Endgame - level of technicality to play?
4) Bb5 has been described as slightly more positional in nature than other Anti-Sicilians, how would you describe the 3 g3? If too varied in variations, how about just the mainline (see below)? Does it require a Carlsenesque technique and genius? Does it require a Mickey Adams boa constrictor style?

I have started exploring 3 g3 with database and Kornev's book (Ch 24) and this is the mainline (I think it is ?):

Thanks in advance!


  

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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #12 - 08/30/09 at 22:22:16
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I think that the KIA structure against the 2...e6 Sicilian is quite good.  That's what I play against the 2...e6 Sicilian.
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #11 - 04/07/09 at 15:34:29
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Against 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 there are mainly three anti's, barring the Wing Gambit (not in the spirit of Bb5) and 3.c4 (ineffective) :
- the d3-g3 system, which you ruled out,
- the b3 sicilian, seeking to control the dark squares,
- the c3 sicilian, having Black commited to ...e6.

the b3 system is the more "positional" in nature, but after e.g. 3.b3 b6 4.Bb2 Bb7, Black's play seems more obvious, so you need to like this position.

The c3 sicilian with ...e6 inserted can claim to cut some options, but this is hardly relevant since an ...e6 player is certainly prepared to face 3.c3. You may opt for that system since you also have to face 1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6, when most players prefer 3.c3 in view of 3.d4?! cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 5.Nb3 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4 with a nice game for Black. If you go 3.Nc3, Black will certainly play 3...a6 (after all, they play 2...e6 for some reason!) and your safer course would be to play the mainline Kan. All in all, I would recommend 3.c3 until you feel ready for some mainline sicilian.

As for the French with 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.ed cd 4.Nc3, why not, but this seems to give away early information to Black. Indeed there is a rule of thumb : when one side puts a Knight at c3 (resp.c6), the other side puts a Pawn at c6 (resp.c3). So you can expect Black to answer 4...c6 and haver the better share of an Exchange French, for what it's worth... Surely 4.c4 or 4.Nf3 are better options !?
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #10 - 04/07/09 at 15:11:02
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4. Nc3 isn't a common move, as the knight tends to be misplaced there given the possibility of ...c6.  (You would generally see White's deployment involving c4 plus Nc3 or c3 plus Nbd2; the same applies to the somewhat similar structure in which Black has an e-pawn rather than a c-pawn, e.g. from the Exchange Caro-Kann.  Similarly with reversed-color situations; e.g. Black doesn't put his knight on c6 in the Exchange QGD.)
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #9 - 04/07/09 at 14:46:58
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exd5 is pretty drawish and symmetrical positions mostly don't lead to interesting positions.
  

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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #8 - 04/07/09 at 13:14:14
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Against the French, also trying to keep myself away from to much theory, I play 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nc3, leaving open the possibility of Bb5+ after c5 and playing against an isolated queen pawn. So the KIA is not part of my repertoire.

By the way what do you think about the above mentioned line against the French?
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #7 - 04/07/09 at 12:40:33
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fairchess wrote on 04/06/09 at 14:19:40:
Hello,
I am starting to study the 3.Bb5 move as White against the Sicilian. However the third move Bb5 makes sense only against 2...d6 and 2...Nc6 Sicilians.
Which variation for White would you recommend against 2...e6 Sicilian? I know there are plenty of possibilities, but which one would suit best for the repertoire of a Bb5 white player?

What do you play against the French? If you play the KIA there, then 3.d3 is surely the way to go against the ...e6 Sicilian. Otherwise, as suggested above, check out Kaufman's recommended repertoire if you can (his book - The Chess Advantage In Black And White - is worth getting anyway even if you don't play most of the lines as there is a lot of instructive opening and middlegame advice).
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #6 - 04/06/09 at 21:07:05
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fairchess wrote on 04/06/09 at 21:01:36:
John Hall wrote on 04/06/09 at 18:45:42:
I used to play 3. Nc3, hoping for 3 ...Nc6- which was played about half the time against me. (I would of course play 4. Bb5)

If they played 3 ...a6, I would go for the open sicilian- but at least you've narrowed it down to the Kan...


and what do you play after 3.Nc3 d5?


3...d5?! is dubious because of 4.ed5 ed5 5.d4 and White is at least slightly better. Another option for White instead of 3.Nc3 is 3.c4, striving for a Maroczy Bind setup, although Black should be able to fully equalise.

Finally, 3.Nc3 a6 4.d4 cd4 5.Nd4 does not narrow Black's options down to the Kan - Black can transpose to a Taimanov with 5...Nc6 or a Najdorf/Scheviningen with 5...d6 followed by 6...Nf6.


  

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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #5 - 04/06/09 at 21:01:36
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John Hall wrote on 04/06/09 at 18:45:42:
I used to play 3. Nc3, hoping for 3 ...Nc6- which was played about half the time against me. (I would of course play 4. Bb5)

If they played 3 ...a6, I would go for the open sicilian- but at least you've narrowed it down to the Kan...


and what do you play after 3.Nc3 d5?
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #4 - 04/06/09 at 18:45:42
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I used to play 3. Nc3, hoping for 3 ...Nc6- which was played about half the time against me. (I would of course play 4. Bb5)

If they played 3 ...a6, I would go for the open sicilian- but at least you've narrowed it down to the Kan...
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #3 - 04/06/09 at 15:11:54
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Hi,
in my eyes it is only 3.c3 worth to be played.....!
greetings
wolfsblut
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #2 - 04/06/09 at 15:07:35
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Larry Kaufman, in his repertoire book of a few years ago, thought that 2...e6 3. b3 goes well with the Moscow and Rossolimo.
  
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Re: 3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
Reply #1 - 04/06/09 at 14:25:33
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maybe Alapin (3.c3). you may try KIA (3. d3) too.
  
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3.Bb5 Sicilian player vs. 2...e6 Sicilian player
04/06/09 at 14:19:40
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Hello,
I am starting to study the 3.Bb5 move as White against the Sicilian. However the third move Bb5 makes sense only against 2...d6 and 2...Nc6 Sicilians.
Which variation for White would you recommend against 2...e6 Sicilian? I know there are plenty of possibilities, but which one would suit best for the repertoire of a Bb5 white player?
  
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