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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?! (Read 8701 times)
TalJechin
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Re: Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
Reply #11 - 08/20/16 at 11:22:04
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After 3.h4 h6 I only found 38 games with both over 2200, statistically White still seems to have an edge scoring about 60% +16 -6 =16.

Beforehand I expected 4.Bf4 d5 to be quite solid, but instead 4...c5 seems to be the move for Black, who even has a plus score +2 -1 =9

Too small selection of course, but I got the impression that after ...d5 White's h4 is more useful than h6, being able to play f3 and g4 without running into ...Qh4+ for example.
  
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Re: Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
Reply #10 - 08/20/16 at 06:59:10
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TalJechin wrote on 08/19/16 at 19:13:01:
One thing I'm curious about is why Black doesn't simply play ...h6 immediately or at some early point - isn't h6 a more useful move than h4 ? It seems to score well/okay for Black but it still seems quite uncommon...


In many lines after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 Ne4 3. Bf4, Black will play .. c5 and meet d5 with a Benoni like structure with .. g6 and .. Bd7. That is going to be more difficult having played .. h6. So that's a possible reason.

It's many years since I abandoned the Tromp. At one time in English weekend tournaments, you could take a look at the top boards and find out the latest theory from what Hodgson, Adams, Miles, Hebden etc were playing. My impression since, is that as the theory develops, it just gets weirder by the year.

Playing .. h6 is certainly a simple way to meet h4. You would want to examine all the parallel lines without h4 and .. h6 to establish whose advantage it was with the extra moves.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
Reply #9 - 08/19/16 at 19:13:01
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Thanks for replying!

I've never played 3.h4 myself, mostly because the few books that mention it recommends to stay away from it...

One thing I'm curious about is why Black doesn't simply play ...h6 immediately or at some early point - isn't h6 a more useful move than h4 ? It seems to score well/okay for Black but it still seems quite uncommon...

For example after 4.d5 h6 does White have anything better than Bf4 ? If not, can't Black gain time on h4 compared to the lines without h4 & h6 inserted. Castling short for White might be harder to arrange, for one thing... :/

Even after 4.d5 Qb6 5.Nd2 h6 seems possible. After 6.Nxe4 hxg5 7.Nxg5 Qxb2 8.Rh3 Qd4N Robodini prefers Black by about 0.3
  
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Re: Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
Reply #8 - 08/19/16 at 17:25:39
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From what I can see the move 4.d5! is very interesting for white.
A short analysis didn' t reveal any immediate drawbacks of substituting Bf4 with h4.
In some variations it is beneficial, e.g.
4.d5 Qb6 5.Nd2 now there is no 5. ... Qb2:, as after 6.Ne4: Qb4+ 7.Nd2 there is no bishop hanging on f4.

Also after 5.Nd2 Nd2: 6.Bd2: Qb2: 7.Nf3 (or 7.e4), compared to 3.Bf4 White has the move h4 for free, which seems to favor him, as Black's most common way to develop the kingside is with g6.

Instead Black can take the pawn after 5. ... Ng5: 6.hg5: Qb2:, but White has the interesting second sacrifice 7.g6!? fg6: 8.e4 with compensation.
Notably, GM Popov switched sides after beating Lokander with Black in this variation in 2014, he essayed 7.g6 with White against Mozharov in 2015 (draw).

This all looks a little uncomfortable to me, so I would rather play 3. ... d5 as Black.
Or does somebody know a way for Black to get a position without too much trouble after 4.d5?
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
Reply #7 - 08/17/16 at 08:31:27
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Recently noticed that 3.h4 in the Tromp seems to be making a come back again, despite or because all the literature seems to be condemning it?! Are there any new sources advocating it? When googling I noticed a couple of articles in CBM 150 and 152, but haven't picked them up yet.

Then I noticed that apparently 3.h4 was refuted here on chesspub seven years ago! Smiley I glanced in the database and there is a new (i.e. not mentioned here yet) stem game OTB from 2002, and another glance with the engine seemed to turn the result of at least one of the older corr games upside down...

It would be interesting to see the verdict of forum seven years later, is this idea underrated or not better than the sketchy MLs?

  
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Re: Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
Reply #6 - 04/15/09 at 11:39:44
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TopNotch, whatever your chagrin at someone commenting that they are making a move suggestion whilst slapping their thighs with a haddock (or wait, was that...), there really is little need to respond in that manner. Simply posting a few simple lines to show why the move is inferior would be sufficient, and far more respectful.

I think a few moves are sufficient here, really.... 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.h4 c5 4.dxc5 d5 5.exd6 Qb6 6.Be3 Qxb2 7.Bd4 Qb4+ 8.c3 Qb2 9.c4 Qb4+ 10.Nd2 certainly doesn't look to me like the sort of position that the player of the white pieces will be aspiring to. Whilst 10...Nc6 is simple enough, I quite like 10...e5! as a (most likely temporary) gambit - 11.Bxe5 Nc6 12.Bf4 Bxd6 13.Bxd6 Nxd6 and if white tries to cling to the loot with 14.Rc1 O-O 15.Ngf3 then 15...Qa5 and black has more than enough (though he can pretty much win the pawn back whenever he chooses). The h4 in this position looks like a mouseslip. and there are only very faint dreams of it actually being constructive.

My observation would be that 4.d5 isn't refuted by this. I'm no great expert on the Tromp, but I seem to recall that Hodgson (who was a great expert on the Tromp) favoured this move.

So, whilst I don't believe the 3.h4 Tromp is currently fashionable anyway, I don't think your move is a death-knell to the entire system, though certainly it makes 4.dxc5 look a little less appetizing.
  

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Re: Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
Reply #5 - 04/13/09 at 21:22:01
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I consider myself soundly chastised.
I slapped my thigh several times with a haddock. It will not happen again.

Mind you - early doors and no pieces come off, so not hard as yet.

Moves please TN, I am interested in your follow up. Back to the chess...
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
Reply #4 - 04/13/09 at 16:12:02
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Bibs wrote on 04/12/09 at 02:32:23:
TopNotch wrote on 04/11/09 at 19:12:44:
I have been sitting on what I consider a rather important theoretical novelty for over a decade, and in all that time an opportunity has never arose to give it a test, not even in Blitz. So having grown tired of waiting to use it, I present it here as the complete answer to Miladinovic's 3.h4?! Tromp.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.h4 c5 4.dxc5 d5!! and Black is already slightly better. The key idea being to meet 5.cxd6 ep with the disruptive and strong 5...Qb6! which threatens to either mate on f2 or destroy White's Queenside with Qxb2, either way White has his work cut out.

Alternatives to 5.cxd6 ep for White are unimpressive, and so I fully expect this line to completely disappear from tournament play as news of this thread spreads.

That is all.

Toppy Smiley


Interesting. Off top of my head, no board (packed away to stop me wasting time!), but initial in-head analysis of all obvious lines suggests white may be fine with:
5 cd: (ep) Qb6
6 Be3.

Tromp players never fussed about that b pawn and the queenside. Well, I never was.


If you are not going to bother using a board, especially in a sharp position, why not wait till you have access to one before posting off the top of your head.

The part about not fussing about the b pawn is a generalisation which in this case would not be advisable or likely to solve White's problems.

Whether it be an attempt to impress or otherwise, it always amuses me when players post moves preceeded by 'Oh I'm not using a board or Oh I'm Blindfolded or oh I'm standing on my head but what about so and so move followed by an evaluation.

Is the need to let forum users know that one is not using a board an attempt to indemnify against posting ill considered moves or moves.

For forum purposes it really is irrelevant whether posters know whether one is using a board or not.  

Tops Smiley



  

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Re: Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
Reply #3 - 04/12/09 at 02:32:23
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TopNotch wrote on 04/11/09 at 19:12:44:
I have been sitting on what I consider a rather important theoretical novelty for over a decade, and in all that time an opportunity has never arose to give it a test, not even in Blitz. So having grown tired of waiting to use it, I present it here as the complete answer to Miladinovic's 3.h4?! Tromp.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.h4 c5 4.dxc5 d5!! and Black is already slightly better. The key idea being to meet 5.cxd6 ep with the disruptive and strong 5...Qb6! which threatens to either mate on f2 or destroy White's Queenside with Qxb2, either way White has his work cut out.

Alternatives to 5.cxd6 ep for White are unimpressive, and so I fully expect this line to completely disappear from tournament play as news of this thread spreads.

That is all.

Toppy Smiley


Interesting. Off top of my head, no board (packed away to stop me wasting time!), but initial in-head analysis of all obvious lines suggests white may be fine with:
5 cd: (ep) Qb6
6 Be3.

Tromp players never fussed about that b pawn and the queenside. Well, I never was.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
Reply #2 - 04/11/09 at 23:20:07
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Thanks Matemax,

At least my knowledge of this line predates those CC games  Wink

Besides everything has already been played in Correspondence Chess, in OTB chess though this still appears to be a novelty.

Tops Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
Reply #1 - 04/11/09 at 19:39:03
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Really nice - but already played (corr.) Smiley

chesslive.de:

[Event "DESC K0045 email"]
[Site "DESC email"]
[Date "2003.??.??"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Hemmerling,Roland"]
[Black "Hoegerl,Gerd"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "A45"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.h4 c5 4.dxc5 d5 5.Nd2 Nxc5 6.e4 h6 7.Be3 d4 8.Bb5+ Nc6 9.Bxc6+ bxc6 10.Bf4 Qb6 11.Rb1 Be6 12.b3 Rd8 13.h5 Bc8 14.Ngf3 Bg4 15.Nc4 Qb5 16.a4 Nxa4 17.Ra1 e5 18.Bd2 Nc3 19.Bxc3 dxc3 20.Qe2 Bc5 21.Rh4 Be6 22.Nfxe5 Be7 23.Rxa7 Bxh4 0-1

[Event "AR-2003-F-00006 email"]
[Site "Chessfriend.com"]
[Date "2004.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Lindam,Ingo"]
[Black "Sondermann,Dirk"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "A45"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.h4 c5 4.dxc5 d5 5.Nd2 Nxc5 6.e4 dxe4 7.b4 Nca6 8.c3 f6 9.Be3 f5 10.Nh3 e5 11.Bc4 Qc7 12.Ng5 f4 13.0-0 Be7 0-1

  
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TopNotch
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Trompowsky - Miladinovic Style?!
04/11/09 at 19:12:44
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I have been sitting on what I consider a rather important theoretical novelty for over a decade, and in all that time an opportunity has never arose to give it a test, not even in Blitz. So having grown tired of waiting to use it, I present it here as the complete answer to Miladinovic's 3.h4?! Tromp.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.h4 c5 4.dxc5 d5!! and Black is already slightly better. The key idea being to meet 5.cxd6 ep with the disruptive and strong 5...Qb6! which threatens to either mate on f2 or destroy White's Queenside with Qxb2, either way White has his work cut out.

Alternatives to 5.cxd6 ep for White are unimpressive, and so I fully expect this line to completely disappear from tournament play as news of this thread spreads.

That is all.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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