TalJechin wrote on 08/19/16 at 19:13:01:


In many lines after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 Ne4 3. Bf4, Black will play .. c5 and meet d5 with a Benoni like structure with .. g6 and .. Bd7. That is going to be more difficult having played .. h6. So that's a possible reason.

It's many years since I abandoned the Tromp. At one time in English weekend tournaments, you could take a look at the top boards and find out the latest theory from what Hodgson, Adams, Miles, Hebden etc were playing. My impression since, is that as the theory develops, it just gets weirder by the year.

Playing .. h6 is certainly a simple way to meet h4. You would want to examine all the parallel lines without h4 and .. h6 to establish whose advantage it was with the extra moves.

From what I can see the move 4.d5! is very interesting for white.
A short analysis didn' t reveal any immediate drawbacks of substituting Bf4 with h4.
In some variations it is beneficial, e.g.
4.d5 Qb6 5.Nd2 now there is no 5. ... Qb2:, as after 6.Ne4: Qb4+ 7.Nd2 there is no bishop hanging on f4.

Also after 5.Nd2 Nd2: 6.Bd2: Qb2: 7.Nf3 (or 7.e4), compared to 3.Bf4 White has the move h4 for free, which seems to favor him, as Black's most common way to develop the kingside is with g6.

Instead Black can take the pawn after 5. ... Ng5: 6.hg5: Qb2:, but White has the interesting second sacrifice 7.g6!? fg6: 8.e4 with compensation.
Notably, GM Popov switched sides after beating Lokander with Black in this variation in 2014, he essayed 7.g6 with White against Mozharov in 2015 (draw).

This all looks a little uncomfortable to me, so I would rather play 3. ... d5 as Black.
Or does somebody know a way for Black to get a position without too much trouble after 4.d5?

TopNotch, whatever your chagrin at someone commenting that they are making a move suggestion whilst slapping their thighs with a haddock (or wait, was that...), there really is little need to respond in that manner. Simply posting a few simple lines to show why the move is inferior would be sufficient, and far more respectful.

I think a few moves are sufficient here, really.... 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.h4 c5 4.dxc5 d5 5.exd6 Qb6 6.Be3 Qxb2 7.Bd4 Qb4+ 8.c3 Qb2 9.c4 Qb4+ 10.Nd2 certainly doesn't look to me like the sort of position that the player of the white pieces will be aspiring to. Whilst 10...Nc6 is simple enough, I quite like 10...e5! as a (most likely temporary) gambit - 11.Bxe5 Nc6 12.Bf4 Bxd6 13.Bxd6 Nxd6 and if white tries to cling to the loot with 14.Rc1 O-O 15.Ngf3 then 15...Qa5 and black has more than enough (though he can pretty much win the pawn back whenever he chooses). The h4 in this position looks like a mouseslip. and there are only very faint dreams of it actually being constructive.

My observation would be that 4.d5 isn't refuted by this. I'm no great expert on the Tromp, but I seem to recall that Hodgson (who was a great expert on the Tromp) favoured this move.

So, whilst I don't believe the 3.h4 Tromp is currently fashionable anyway, I don't think your move is a death-knell to the entire system, though certainly it makes 4.dxc5 look a little less appetizing.

Bibs wrote on 04/12/09 at 02:32:23:


If you are not going to bother using a board, especially in a sharp position, why not wait till you have access to one before posting off the top of your head.

The part about not fussing about the b pawn is a generalisation which in this case would not be advisable or likely to solve White's problems.

Whether it be an attempt to impress or otherwise, it always amuses me when players post moves preceeded by 'Oh I'm not using a board or Oh I'm Blindfolded or oh I'm standing on my head but what about so and so move followed by an evaluation.

Is the need to let forum users know that one is not using a board an attempt to indemnify against posting ill considered moves or moves.

For forum purposes it really is irrelevant whether posters know whether one is using a board or not.  

Tops

Thanks Matemax,

At least my knowledge of this line predates those CC games 

Besides everything has already been played in Correspondence Chess, in OTB chess though this still appears to be a novelty.

Tops

I have been sitting on what I consider a rather important theoretical novelty for over a decade, and in all that time an opportunity has never arose to give it a test, not even in Blitz. So having grown tired of waiting to use it, I present it here as the complete answer to Miladinovic's 3.h4?! Tromp.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.h4 c5 4.dxc5 d5!! and Black is already slightly better. The key idea being to meet 5.cxd6 ep with the disruptive and strong 5...Qb6! which threatens to either mate on f2 or destroy White's Queenside with Qxb2, either way White has his work cut out.

Alternatives to 5.cxd6 ep for White are unimpressive, and so I fully expect this line to completely disappear from tournament play as news of this thread spreads.

That is all.

Toppy