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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser (Read 10814 times)
MNb
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Re: Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
Reply #11 - 04/19/09 at 20:30:28
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The Scheveningen player can avoid the feared Keres Attack after eg 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d6 (a6) 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nc6 (a6). So even those who use the Najdorf to reach the Scheveningen may consider 2...e6.
  

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Re: Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
Reply #10 - 04/18/09 at 03:31:18
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Spassky-Kasparov was a sort of follow-up to Spassky-Kortchnoi (which in its time was considered to have shown the reliability of 2...e6).   

2...e6 could also be played by a Scheveningen, Four Knights or Sveshnikov player.
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
Reply #9 - 04/18/09 at 02:51:10
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ANDREW BRETT wrote on 04/17/09 at 09:23:41:
2..e6 simply is fine for black against 3 g3. I seem to recall Kasparov playing this and drawing very easily against Spassky.

On the other hand 3 nf3 intending 4 d4 is a much more critical test so obviously anyone wanting to try this out must be willing to have a Kan or Taimanov set up.

As for  2.. nc6 3 Bb5 - this can catch you out but it's not that great.



you're right of course: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1069987
  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
Reply #8 - 04/17/09 at 09:23:41
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2..e6 simply is fine for black against 3 g3. I seem to recall Kasparov playing this and drawing very easily against Spassky.

On the other hand 3 nf3 intending 4 d4 is a much more critical test so obviously anyone wanting to try this out must be willing to have a Kan or Taimanov set up.

As for  2.. nc6 3 Bb5 - this can catch you out but it's not that great.
  
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zoo
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Re: Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
Reply #7 - 04/16/09 at 10:06:25
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Agreed, I would rather be Black as well.

Typical achievement for Black is something like :
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 4.ed ed 5.Bg2 Nf6 6.d3 d4 7.Ne4 Nxe4 8.Bxe4 Nd7 9.Ne2 Nf6 10.Bg2 Bd6 11.0-0 0-0 12.Bf4 Bg4 13.Bxd6 Qxd6 (see diagram).

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Nothing to get hung about, but Black is certainly OK here.

If you don't want to get into this with White, you can perhaps start with 1.e4 c5 2.d3 instead !? Now 2...e6 allows a good version of the King's Indian Attack, and you can even play f4 before Nf3. If allowed you play either for mainline Nc3 or d3-c3-f4-g3-h3-g4 (the so-called "big clamp"), and on 1.e4 c5 2.d3 d5, 3.f4 is very decent, not fearing 3...de 4.de Qxd1 Kxd1 when pawn c5 hinders Black (bishop obstructed, d6 weakened...).
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
Reply #6 - 04/16/09 at 00:12:59
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I think the position might be sterile from an objective/GM sense. In an amateur game I think there would be enough play left in the position. On the other hand, I haven't tested it out or studied it closely. All I can say is, I'd rather be Black in the 2...e6 line. It would be interesting to see if any Closed players think this can be made good for Black.

  

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zoo
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Re: Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
Reply #5 - 04/15/09 at 16:19:04
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I played the closed sicilian (g3 variation) for years with White as well as ...e6 sicilians with Black. The line you mention after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 is totally sterile and may frustrate Black as well, so I would much prefer 2...Nc6 and then the setup with g6-Bg7-d6-e6/e5-Nge7 (or Nf6 against Be3). It took me much too long to see that Bg2 is a poor piece :
- it weakens the White king and can often be lured into exchange sacs after which Black's bishops radiate like machine guns ;
- it weakens d3 and allows Black to pile up on the d-file, after which White has to make something of his attack, or else his position sinks.

Many people call the closed sicilian a "positional" system, but the positional trumps are for Black, and White seems to be commited to attack in King's Gambit fashion, striving to put his bishop at e4, like in many games by Spassky's. Perhaps 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nd4 4.Bc4 is a better idea after all?

PS. As a sadistic bonus, with Black I love to play the opening moves at the same pace as White, including the false gambit with e5, to make them feel they will get nothing out of the opening. A self-inflicted revenge, perhaps...
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
Reply #4 - 04/15/09 at 13:10:14
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ghenghisclown wrote on 04/15/09 at 11:29:14:
Yes, of course. However, as a practical matter I don't see many Closed players with much flexibility. In short, within a club setting you're gonna see 3.g3 or 3.f4. It's only at Master level that these move order issues seem relevant to me...but you're right that White can play this way.

After the usual move, 2...Nc6 he's already commited himself anyway, hasn't he? Can he still get into a Najdorf (don't think so)? Presumably after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 he/she can still get into a Dragon. Nonetheless, Black has to contend with 3.Bb5 ...well anyway I'm going off here..the point is that Nc6 isn't such a hot move but I guess if you're a Classical or Dragon player it might be alright.

So what you might be saying is: Kan players need not worry much against the Closed??


well Kan and Taimanov and Scheveningen and so on  Grin

In the Sharpest Sicilian Georgiev and Kolev propose 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 a6 although without too much analysis (just one line or so) in order to be able to reach the Najdorf if white plays 3 Nf3

My own very embryonic ideas about 2 ... a6 are this: for me it is a high class waiting move in order to see what white wants to play: after 3 Nf3 d6 and e6 (but if you would liek to play an e6 sicilian 2... e6 makes more sense)  are quite okay. After f4 I would play e6. I have seen this idea discussed after the other move order 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 e6 3 f4 a6 by a few strong junior players (2100-2200 elo) with the idea of cutting out any Bb5/ Bc4 stuff. As the grand prix is mighty popular at my club I had a look at this and when followed up by d5 later on it seems quite allright.

I would like to say e6 is also possible against g3 but to be honest I haven't looked at it yet. Still it seems quite unlikely g3 would refute that move.

Perhaps 2 Nge2 poses the biggest problem   
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
Reply #3 - 04/15/09 at 12:49:30
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ghenghisclown wrote on 04/15/09 at 11:29:14:
So what you might be saying is: Kan players need not worry much against the Closed??

Yes, I guess so, but I would play the Sicilian all the time if I thought my opponent was going to play the Closed, anyway, as lots of lines are very pleasant for Black. Smiley
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
Reply #2 - 04/15/09 at 11:29:14
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Yes, of course. However, as a practical matter I don't see many Closed players with much flexibility. In short, within a club setting you're gonna see 3.g3 or 3.f4. It's only at Master level that these move order issues seem relevant to me...but you're right that White can play this way.

After the usual move, 2...Nc6 he's already commited himself anyway, hasn't he? Can he still get into a Najdorf (don't think so)? Presumably after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 he/she can still get into a Dragon. Nonetheless, Black has to contend with 3.Bb5 ...well anyway I'm going off here..the point is that Nc6 isn't such a hot move but I guess if you're a Classical or Dragon player it might be alright.

So what you might be saying is: Kan players need not worry much against the Closed??
  

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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
Reply #1 - 04/15/09 at 10:40:22
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I suppose Black can only play this if he is willing to play an ...e6 Open Sicilian (after 3 Nf3 or 3 Nge2), so Closed players probably don't have to face it that often.
  
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ghenghisclown
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Closed Sicilian line recommended by Palliser
04/15/09 at 10:25:53
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To my mind (or at least first glance)
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bg2 Nf6 looks totally equal for Black. This is Palliser's second suggestion in his Anti-Sicilians book, if no one's discussed it yet.

Can any Closed players out there share why this just doesn't totally discourage you??
  

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