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Normal Topic Philidor Question (Read 4411 times)
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Re: Philidor Question
Reply #7 - 05/04/09 at 22:46:16
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trw wrote:
... these days putting a rest to the much loved Hanham line due the venom of 7. Ng5

What variation do you mean ?
  
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trw
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Re: Philidor Question
Reply #6 - 04/20/09 at 02:38:45
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shalgo wrote on 04/19/09 at 18:28:41:
Bauer deals with 7.f4 with the remark that it "invites the central reply 7...d5!"  I can't find any games played with this move, but I would think that white has chances at getting an advantage after 8.e5 Ne4 9.Nxe4 de 10.Be3.



Frankly, the d5 response makes no sense. Here the only logical moves to me for black are c5 and Re8 and possibly Nbd7.

Is there a reason why Philidor is rarely seen at the master level? There doesn't seem to be any champion of the philidor. I realize that '3.. exd4' is virtually forced these days putting a rest to the much loved Hanham line due the venom of 7. Ng5

Tony Kosten used to champion is back when he wrote a book on it!

Markovich wrote on 04/18/09 at 13:24:58:
trw wrote on 04/18/09 at 02:48:01:
Though I don't understand why f4 before 0-0 should be preferable since white clearly intends to castle short.


My point was that if f4 were played early, then ...c5 could be met with Nf3 without obstructing the f-pawn.  To me, the pawn duo looks more potent backed up by a knight on f3; I don't really see what Bauer's 8.Nb3"!" is about.



Also Bauer's Nb3"!" is about still being allowed to play f4 at all cause under the move order it is recommended in is as follows 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. Be2 0-0 7. 0-0 c5 where now 8. Nf3 locks in the f3 pawn so he's giving 8. Nb3 an "!" because it still allows the f4 plan after Re8 or Nc6 etc to play 9. f4

However, this just makes me prefer your move order of 7. f4 before 7.0-0 because then White does have our preferred option of Nf3 for the knight. I see no hole in this move order which begs the question of why its not played and scores poorly when it is essayed.
  
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shalgo
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Re: Philidor Question
Reply #5 - 04/19/09 at 18:28:41
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Bauer deals with 7.f4 with the remark that it "invites the central reply 7...d5!"  I can't find any games played with this move, but I would think that white has chances at getting an advantage after 8.e5 Ne4 9.Nxe4 de 10.Be3.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Philidor Question
Reply #4 - 04/18/09 at 13:24:58
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trw wrote on 04/18/09 at 02:48:01:
Though I don't understand why f4 before 0-0 should be preferable since white clearly intends to castle short.


My point was that if f4 were played early, then ...c5 could be met with Nf3 without obstructing the f-pawn.  To me, the pawn duo looks more potent backed up by a knight on f3; I don't really see what Bauer's 8.Nb3"!" is about.
  

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Re: Philidor Question
Reply #3 - 04/18/09 at 02:48:01
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shalgo wrote on 04/17/09 at 18:58:52:
Bauer, in The Philidor Files, gives 7...c5!? as an alternative to 7...Re8.  His main line then runs 8.Nb3! Nc6 9.f4 a5!? (mentioning 9...Re8 as an alternative) 10.a4 Nb4 11.Bf3 Qb6 "with level chances," following Sakelsek-Sebinek, Maribor 2004.



thank you for this and you're right c5 even at move 7... instead of 8... might be better since in large part the Re8 move is to facilitate Bf8.

In fact I found a game where Howard Staunton did exactly as you suggest Markovich! http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1001244

Though I don't understand why f4 before 0-0 should be preferable since white clearly intends to castle short.
  
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Re: Philidor Question
Reply #2 - 04/17/09 at 20:16:50
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shalgo wrote on 04/17/09 at 18:58:52:
Bauer, in The Philidor Files, gives 7...c5!? as an alternative to 7...Re8.  His main line then runs 8.Nb3! Nc6 9.f4 a5!? (mentioning 9...Re8 as an alternative) 10.a4 Nb4 11.Bf3 Qb6 "with level chances," following Sakelsek-Sebinek, Maribor 2004.

Well, if this is important, then why can't White play 7.f4 instead of 7.0-0, so as to facilitate the knight's retreat of f3?
  

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shalgo
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Re: Philidor Question
Reply #1 - 04/17/09 at 18:58:52
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Bauer, in The Philidor Files, gives 7...c5!? as an alternative to 7...Re8.  His main line then runs 8.Nb3! Nc6 9.f4 a5!? (mentioning 9...Re8 as an alternative) 10.a4 Nb4 11.Bf3 Qb6 "with level chances," following Sakelsek-Sebinek, Maribor 2004.
  
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trw
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Philidor Question
04/15/09 at 19:43:06
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1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. Be2 (GM Larry Kaufman in his book The Chess Advantage Black and White calls this move "the wimp's way out of playing 6. Bf4" is there really reason to believe Be2 isn't as effective as it seems?) ... 0-0 7. 0-0 Re8 leads to a position where GM Renet recommends Nimzovitch's old plan of 8. f4 after which white clearly obtains a nice game by black continuing ... Bf8 9. Bf3 c5?! (which Renet notes as dubious). However, c5 inserted earlier instead of 8... Bf8 seems reasonable for black stopping white's plan of Nde2 h3 g4 Ng3. Now the Knight must choose immediately between Nf3 or Nb3.

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The position still seems pleasant for white but is better and why? Nf3 or Nb3. I prefer Nf3 to keep to a kingside attack plan. However I can only find two high level games with 9... c5 10. Nf3 and the score is in black's favor:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1477330
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1542456
  
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