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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical (Read 45015 times)
motörhead
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #15 - 02/13/10 at 16:37:45
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TopNotch wrote on 04/17/09 at 02:42:55:
Inspired largely by the success of Radjabov and Bologan I recently decided to add this still relatively underrated but interesting line to my Black repertoire. An opportunity soon arose for me to give it a practical test in a Rapid tournament where the following position was quickly reached: 

Fide Master vs Toppy - Rapid Tourney (E94) 12/04/09

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nbd7 8.Be3 Re8 9.d5 Nh5 10.g3 Bf8 11.Nd2 Ng7 12.b4 f5 13.Nb3 Be7

Incidentally and unbeknownst to both players at the time the above position was briefly outlined by Yelena Dembo in Dangerous Weapons: The KID, quite a useful book by the way, particularly if one is willing to put in the extra analytical work required. Here Dembo writes "Black prepares …Bg5 and later f4; it is clear that Black’s kingside play is well underway."


The mainline, TopNotch referred to, seems to be quite right in regard of Black's classical attacking patterns as this thread shows.

I'm more concerned  with the simple 8.Qc2. Dembo has an overview on that, but I'm not really convinced (as in total her articles in the DW KI are a bit thin, to my feeling. In the main line she has not streched to far beyond that what Watson said on this special variation in "Mastering the Chess Openings vol. 2").

On 8.Qc2 she gives 8...Nh5 (otherwise White may follow up with Rd1 and Black has to pay attention not to drift into a passive position; e.g. 8...c6 9.Rd1 Qe7which is difficult after say 10.d5) but it is not easy to find something fluid against 9.Bg5 f6 10.Be3. Black's pieces are now a bit misplaced to my feeling.

Yes, with 10...Nf4 11.Bxf4 exf4 Black can snatch the pair of bishops. But what ist the price? White dominates in the center, while Black does not really has suitable levers. Yes, there is f7-f5, but this opens the position (exf5 Txf5) giving White posibilities on the e-file (X e6). The natural set-up will be Bd3, Rfe1 and Ne4 or Re2/Rae1 or both to come.

I have my doubts  that Black is able to create an attack, because the pieces stumble over another. 
Rybka sees White a clear bit better (up to +0,60 or 0,70).

Any ideas?

cheese
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #14 - 05/07/09 at 01:56:52
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FightingDragon wrote on 04/27/09 at 20:30:45:
Another issue in this variation is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.Be3 Nbd7 8.d5!? which Dembo skips in her coverage but Golubev assesses as better for white.


FightingDragon wrote on 04/27/09 at 20:30:45:
Another issue in this variation is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.Be3 Nbd7 8.d5!? which Dembo skips in her coverage but Golubev assesses as better for white.


Strangely enough in a recent game Dembo herself allows this possibility, although in the Dangerous Weapon book she states this is a position that Black would do better to avoid.

One thing is for certain, those who play the Classical with White have a helluva lot of prep to do these days as Na6, Nbd7 and Nc6 all seem to be brimming with Life and going through a rival. Long gone are the days when you mentioned the word KID that someone would remark "Didn't Kramnik refute that".

The blurb to Semkov's new book Kill the KID sums up how I think many White players feel about the Classical variation in general: 

Semkov: I have always been unhappy with the Classical variation against the KID It’s an enormous amount of theory that is impractical to keep in pace with, even for a professional player. An ever bigger problem is the character of positions that arise. There is something basically wrong to give Black players such attacking chances as in the Classical variation.

I sure hope that the majority of Classical players don't share Semkov's sentiments. Wink

Toppy Smiley   
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #13 - 05/06/09 at 21:42:20
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That's true, but many strong players play it after 7.Be3, so she could have given some information there.
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #12 - 05/06/09 at 21:17:52
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Dembo reccomends sidestepping the Gligoric with the move order 6...Nbd7. Also her articles are after 7.O-O and not after 7.Be3
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #11 - 04/27/09 at 20:30:45
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Another issue in this variation is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.Be3 Nbd7 8.d5!? which Dembo skips in her coverage but Golubev assesses as better for white.
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #10 - 04/23/09 at 19:43:19
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Wow, 14...f4! is such a natural move (especially for the King's Indian) that I can hardly believe I didn't even consider it (although I'm sure Toppy did consider it but probably mistakenly rejected it).  I know I was too fixated on the idea of swapping dark-squared bishops with ...Bg5.  14...f4 looks like a very satisfactory answer to 14.c5.
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #9 - 04/23/09 at 09:36:43
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I played yesterday a nice game with Black against the "Tarzan Attack" and won in style and there was my old coach watching the game and i felt nice when we analysed it together afterwards and received his compliments about my game improving etc....

Why i say all these? After the analysis of my game i showed him the position we are discussing here after 14.c5. My coach is one of the true "gurus" of the KID and i always show him interesting new trends in the openings because i trust his outstanding judgment and he can direct me to the right path.

So, when i played 14.c5 on the board, his 20 years experience in the opening almost immediately stoped me and he tried the sequence of moves 14...f4 15.gxf4 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bf6 17.Rc1 (i analysed protecting the knight with the queen with the help of my PC afterwards and the evaluation doesn't change) 17...Bxc3 18.Rxc3 Rxe4 and stoped here to think. After a minute or so he said: "Hmmm, it is not as easy as i thought at first. Maybe Black is not better after all, but he has a playable position for sure. I don't like 14.c5 for White. Maybe 14.Rc1 first?"

I was amazed by his reaction! I was analysing this position from the first day i saw it here and i never considered this transformation. This has to do mainly because i analyse with the PC i think. I immediately went from being proud that my understanding of the KID was good to felting very little indeed! 

I don't know if 14...f4 leeds to a better, equal or slightly worse position for Black after all, but i know that we should try harder to work on our understanding of typical positions and trasformaations. My coach saw this without blinking and we, so many minds here, didn't!  Embarrassed
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #8 - 04/22/09 at 19:49:08
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GM Golubev just posted his review of the DW - KID book at http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/9/biblio.htm, and has promised to look at these lines in his April update! Wink
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #7 - 04/21/09 at 17:59:50
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And don't fall into this:  http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1234807911

(although from what I know of your repertoire it seems unlikely to be a concern) ...
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #6 - 04/21/09 at 17:48:46
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TopNotch wrote on 04/20/09 at 23:22:00:
Lots of interesting replies here, and I will need some time to work through all these suggestions before posting any analysis. Unfortuantely this analysis could be delayed a bit as currently I'm hard at work trying to whip myself into shape for a tournament starting the 27th April featuring GM Rainer Buhmann GM Alex Shabalov GM Alonso Zapata plus a host of IM's and FM's. 

Hopefully when that tournament has concluded I will have some theoretically interesting games to report, particularly as it is unlikely that these games will be captured by conventional database sources such as TWIC and the like.

Wish me luck, I'm gunna need it.

Tops Smiley

Fortuna may smile at you...

And most of all you need this:
http://main.uschess.org/content/view/8633/471/

Grin
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #5 - 04/20/09 at 23:22:00
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Lots of interesting replies here, and I will need some time to work through all these suggestions before posting any analysis. Unfortuantely this analysis could be delayed a bit as currently I'm hard at work trying to whip myself into shape for a tournament starting the 27th April featuring GM Rainer Buhmann GM Alex Shabalov GM Alonso Zapata plus a host of IM's and FM's. 

Hopefully when that tournament has concluded I will have some theoretically interesting games to report, particularly as it is unlikely that these games will be captured by conventional database sources such as TWIC and the like.

Wish me luck, I'm gunna need it.

Tops Smiley
  
The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #4 - 04/20/09 at 20:10:17
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A couple of thoughts after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nbd7 8.Be3 Re8 9.d5 Nh5 10.g3 Bf8 11.Nd2 Ng7 12.b4

1) Is there a reason Black can't vary his move order and play 12...Be7!? and meet 13.Nb3 with 13...Bg5.  After 14.Bxg5 Qxg5 15.Nb5, Black has to play 15...Qd8 but now ...a6 will gain a tempo on the knight and Black can get some play with ...f5.

2) After 12...f5 13.Nb3 Be7 14.c5 a6!? (Ametanoitos), doesn't White get a nice edge with 15.c6?
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #3 - 04/20/09 at 17:36:12
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I know that this may sound stupid but i tried to play the position after 14.c5 against my PC and i played 14...a6 with the idea to prepare Bg5 without allowing the Nb5 move. Ati first i thought that it should lose somehow but my computer failed to strike the final blow and quickly i got chances against the White king. I analysed the position after that and i honestly believe that it is unclear somehow!

I think that Rowson in chess for Zebras wrote that modern GMs don't bother if a move looks dubious in the hypertheoretical sense but they care only if it works. Maybe 14...a6 works! Analysing with the PC, the engines give 3 or 4 moves with the evaluation "clearly better for White" but after ...Bg5 and two or three moves after that they realise that Black has decent chances for an attack. So....that's the problem with the KID always!
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #2 - 04/17/09 at 10:42:12
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Quote:
Turns out that 18.Na5! would have been much more challenging than the text

Why not simply 18...Rb8? What can White do with the additional tempo in this position?  I will follow up with your plan anyway.

eg:
18. ... Rb8 19.cxd6 cxd6 20.Bxa7 Ng4 21.Bxg4 Bxg4 22.Qd2 Rc8 23.Nxb7 Qd7
  
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Re: Dangerous Weapons: 7…Nbd7 in the Classical
Reply #1 - 04/17/09 at 03:37:44
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Must I reconsiderate my prejudices against 8...Re8 ? I always have thought that Black has huge problems to involve that rook in his attack, based on a remark by Euwe. Isn't Blacks attack considerably slowed down compared to 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 and 7...Nbd7 8.d5 ?
  
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