Thanks -- I guessed it might be since the pages on 7 ..Nbd7 seems to total forty-odd judging by reviews. Should be some meat there!

Would that book be the best source of reasonably up-to-date info (apart from ChessPublishing of course!) on the non-Dembo lines?

Michael Ayton wrote on 12/05/12 at 13:49:31:


True, and I like the Classical line against the Fianchetto too.

JEH wrote on 12/05/12 at 13:01:15:


I can't stop laughing..

Excuse me, but I still can't.. ...

I've been playing the Nbd7 KID for many years. Actuallty not studied a lot of theory for it. Possibly atypical of a KID mindset, I play it for a more slower battle. I like the uber solid way Colin McNab plays it (and the Pirc), so I would look there.

I've played the dangerous Re8 weapon version in one game, and got destroyed, so yes, it's dangerous. The line in the other thread with the prophylactic Qd2/f3/Kg2 plan does seem to kill black's play. I wouldn't like to go there.

Rather than Re8, I'd prefer a set up with c6, to meet d5 with c5 to slow down the queenside play, and/or Qe7 with a plan of exd4. These aren't going to set the board on fire, but that's how I like to play it (or maybe I'm just getting old  ), and it's not exactly hotly theoretical, but solid and strategic.

Nikos had something to say about this variation not too long ago:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1328708842/2#2

Two-three years on, I'd be interested in people's views on whether this Black system has 'stood the test of time'. The overall stats seem good for Black, but I'm not sure about the stats in the critical lines, or if that's significant. And what are the most critical lines? Black's plan has been refined in recent years with one or two tries involving ...a5 and even ...c5. Anyone know what's 'hot'?

I'm also interested in 7 0-0 Nbd7 8 Be3 Qe7 9 Qc2 c6 10 Rad1 b6!?, which might be 'a bit better for White' formally speaking but which has worked for Kozul and McNab! Tricky stuff?

I agree with Markovich. I own both of her Everyman books as well and fine them to be quite good. Her assessments are sometimes vague, for instance "Black has the initiative" or "I'd prefer Black", but that's fine for me in a repertoire book. I think it should be up to the reader to take further steps and investigate all of her critical positions anyway.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant 8.Be3 Re8 9.d5 Nh5 10.g3 Bf8 11.Ne1.

PatzerNoster wrote on 02/16/10 at 01:10:47:


Thanx, I agree off course. But: Sorry. give me hints. I'm not lazy at all, but how can I deal with 8.Qc2 ff. ? Is 8....Nh5 really an idea or is it a flaw? Would 8...c6 be better? What do you think? Sorry, I cannot deal with your Nbd7, Ne1-quotation... There isn't a moveorder at all.
As I remember it, 8...c6 leads to a somewhat passive position. But, as I feel, 8... Nh5 is extraordinarary, but no better. Now what? 
Any hints? 
Thx, cheese

ANDREW BRETT wrote on 02/15/10 at 08:56:55:


Hmm. May well be, that Dembo is right most of the time. And, don't be surprised, I am willing to use my brain too. That was the very reason for my question here.

In the exact variation 8.Qc2 Nh5!? 9.Bg5 f6 10.Be3 Nf4 11.Bxf4 exf4 my feeling was that Dembo's verdict is too optimistic and overall that this section was worked out in a superficial and confused way. And that slightly reminded me on John Nunn's words in the chapter "Books on offbeat openings" in "Secrets of Practical Chess".

May be that there were no usefull games on the item. But then the author is obligued, to produce variations and indications on his/her own. That's what I pay for.

Up to now no one has given me hints that relieve me from my doubts. The reverse ist true.  

cheese

PatzerNoster wrote on 02/14/10 at 19:01:24:


That is true about every analysis.

Apart from "Dangerous Weapons: KID" I only have Dembo´s book "Fighting the anti-King´s Indians" which seems decent and objective enough to me.

Playing g6-g5 doesn´t mean to follow with g5-g4 immediately. Instead Black may play Re8 an Nf8-g6 first.


I wasn´t able to find Lalic´s game cited by Kylemeister. I agree that White is slightly better here but instead of 13...Qe7 in this case more critical looks 13...a5 14.a3 f5 intending 15.exf5 Rxf5 16.c5 d5.

Overall Dembo is probably a bit too optimistic about Black´s chances here.

Cheesemate, perhaps you should look into the lines after 8.Qc2 c6. White is surely slightly better here too but Black´s game is more solid than after 8...Nh5.

Fllg wrote on 02/13/10 at 17:34:20:


I'm not really convinced about that. What is Black heading for? I can't see it. A pawnroller on the king's side? May be, but after g5-g4 there may follow Nf3-h4, direction f5. If White is carefull I think Black achives nothing. Despite the pawn formation f6-g5-f4 and d6 sheds no light on black's king's bishop.
As I saw Ikonnikov played b2-b4 in that game offering the opportunity to lever with a7-a5.
The question to me is how black can do something active. If he sits waiting, white will build up on the e-file.

Over all the comments, Dembo gives to that exact variation in the DW book are incoherent to may feeling. She gives some moves in four subvariations after 11...exf4 but no plans. And she judges black to be fine in positions where some further explanation would have been helpfull. In one game there followed 12.b4?! (in my view) 12...a5 13.a3 f5 14.exf5 Rxf5 "seizing the initiative". Well, may be, but what if white doesn't compromises with 12.b4 but plays say 12.Bd3 or even 12.a3...
which way should black go? 

@ kylemeister: What is the main variation your quoted authors give to 9.Bg5 etc.? Would be nice if you give some moves.

Thx

cheese

What about following the game Ikonnikov-Kornev, Russian Championship 2000? There Black refrained from f6-f5 and instead choose a setup with g6-g5 and Qe7.

FightingDragon wrote on 04/27/09 at 20:30:45:


FightingDragon wrote on 04/27/09 at 20:30:45:


Strangely enough in a recent game Dembo herself allows this possibility, although in the Dangerous Weapon book she states this is a position that Black would do better to avoid.

One thing is for certain, those who play the Classical with White have a helluva lot of prep to do these days as Na6, Nbd7 and Nc6 all seem to be brimming with Life and going through a rival. Long gone are the days when you mentioned the word KID that someone would remark "Didn't Kramnik refute that".

The blurb to Semkov's new book Kill the KID sums up how I think many White players feel about the Classical variation in general: 

Semkov: I have always been unhappy with the Classical variation against the KID It’s an enormous amount of theory that is impractical to keep in pace with, even for a professional player. An ever bigger problem is the character of positions that arise. There is something basically wrong to give Black players such attacking chances as in the Classical variation.

I sure hope that the majority of Classical players don't share Semkov's sentiments.

Toppy    

Dembo reccomends sidestepping the Gligoric with the move order 6...Nbd7. Also her articles are after 7.O-O and not after 7.Be3

Wow, 14...f4! is such a natural move (especially for the King's Indian) that I can hardly believe I didn't even consider it (although I'm sure Toppy did consider it but probably mistakenly rejected it).  I know I was too fixated on the idea of swapping dark-squared bishops with ...Bg5.  14...f4 looks like a very satisfactory answer to 14.c5.

GM Golubev just posted his review of the DW - KID book at http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/9/biblio.htm, and has promised to look at these lines in his April update!

TopNotch wrote on 04/20/09 at 23:22:00:

Fortuna may smile at you...

And most of all you need this:
http://main.uschess.org/content/view/8633/471/

A couple of thoughts after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nbd7 8.Be3 Re8 9.d5 Nh5 10.g3 Bf8 11.Nd2 Ng7 12.b4

1) Is there a reason Black can't vary his move order and play 12...Be7!? and meet 13.Nb3 with 13...Bg5.  After 14.Bxg5 Qxg5 15.Nb5, Black has to play 15...Qd8 but now ...a6 will gain a tempo on the knight and Black can get some play with ...f5.

2) After 12...f5 13.Nb3 Be7 14.c5 a6!? (Ametanoitos), doesn't White get a nice edge with 15.c6?

Quote:

Why not simply 18...Rb8? What can White do with the additional tempo in this position?  I will follow up with your plan anyway.

eg:
18. ... Rb8 19.cxd6 cxd6 20.Bxa7 Ng4 21.Bxg4 Bxg4 22.Qd2 Rc8 23.Nxb7 Qd7

Inspired largely by the success of Radjabov and Bologan I recently decided to add this still relatively underrated but interesting line to my Black repertoire. An opportunity soon arose for me to give it a practical test in a Rapid tournament where the following position was quickly reached: 

Fide Master vs Toppy - Rapid Tourney (E94) 12/04/09

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nbd7 8.Be3 Re8 9.d5 Nh5 10.g3 Bf8 11.Nd2 Ng7 12.b4 f5 13.Nb3 Be7

Incidentally and unbeknownst to both players at the time the above position was briefly outlined by Yelena Dembo in Dangerous Weapons: The KID, quite a useful book by the way, particularly if one is willing to put in the extra analytical work required. Here Dembo writes "Black prepares …Bg5 and later f4; it is clear that Black’s kingside play is well underway." This assessment may well be true, however after my opponent’s natural reply …Bg5 ideas become problematic. Moreover it should be noted that the position after 13…Be7 does not seem to have received any practical tests in tournament play so far, which only serves as further testament to the fertility of this 7…Nbd7 line.  

14.c5 Nf6 [14…Bg5 is well met by 15.Bxg5 Qxg5 16.Nb5 with a clear advantage to White]

15.f3 fxe4 16.fxe4 Bh3 17.Rf2 h5 [This felt quite typical and natural at the time and indeed after my opponent’s equally natural response Black’s initiative grows steadily. However this is not the end of the story as you will see] 

18.cxd6?! [Turns out that 18.Na5! would have been much more challenging than the text, after which it is quite possible that White is simply much better. The position still remains quite sharp and needs a thorough analysis but intuitively I remain skeptical of Black’s chances. Anyway, back to the game]     

18…cxd6 19.Na5 Ng4 20.Bxg4 Bxg4 21.Qf1 h4 22.Ne2 [Losing his nerve and switching to defensive mode, but in so doing the pendulum swings completely in Black’s favor. 22.Nb5 would have been more testing]

The rest is carnage 

22…Qd7 23.gxh4 Bh3 24.Qd1 Bxh4 25.Ng3 Rf8 26.Rc1 Nh5 27.Nxh5 gxh5 28.Qxh5?? Qg7+ 0-1

Despite Black’s success in this game some important questions remain to be answered, such as how to improve Black’s play should 18.Na5 prove good for White. 

Ideas welcome, and perhaps Dembo, Palliser and Flear could also share their thoughts.

Regards,

Toppy