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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White (Read 23358 times)
neuronet
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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #43 - 05/22/09 at 16:54:38
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CraigEvans wrote on 04/30/09 at 18:32:27:
Firstly - Zatara. I would never recommend 1.d4 for beginners or aspiring players. A lot of club players around 1500-1800 have played 1.d4 or 1.Nf3 religiously and are very solid players... with absolutely no tactical awareness or imagination. Closed openings will stifle players who are learning the game, and I am a huge advocate of playing open positions and gambits with both colours whilst improving. Positional understanding and mastery of closed positions will come with experience, but if one is completely unable to string together any sort of tactics, then positional players will not be able to convert their advantages. Playing 1.e4, or at worst the BDG, will make white players acutely aware of the value of the initiative, provide them with the skills to counterpunch or even "swindle" should their positions not be great, to search out and successfully navigate tactics where they are favourably there. Once this is learnt, or at least the player reaches a fair proficiency with tactics, then they can ally this with positional development and mastery of closed positions, and we have a good player on our hands. I think there was an element of jest in Schaakhamster's comment about giving a novice a book on tactics and a BDG opening manual... but there is more than some truth as well. If you can get a beginner to quickly improve his/her tactics and attacking play, then this will stand him/her in good stead in the short-term, and as long as he/she then works on his or her other parts of their game in due course, they can become a good player. I do not know of many people who've made 2200+ without gaining experience in open and tactical positions before graduating into positional understanding.


This is very well put, so I started a thread about the quote at my blog (http://tinyurl.com/qtdw3h).

My main points in contention:

At the patzer level where I reside, the question is how many moves before the tactical fireworks begin, not whether there will be sharp clashes. Indeed, playing d4 against rank patzers like myself may be a good thing. We are likely to get impatient and prematurely attack. Games between patzers in d4 lines are not going to generate the kind of slow positional masterpieces you'd find in a strategy book written by a GM. Someone will make a mistake, and tactics will follow.

Don't get me wrong, I've had a lot of fun with my kooky gambit e4 lines, especially the Danish/Goring. But I also am starting to appreciate games where it takes longer for the fireworks to begin.

The most important things, in order, for a patzer in choosing an opening are:
1) Do I like it and am I comfortable playing it?
2) Does it have fatal flaws that people at my level are able to exploit in practice?
3) Are there other things I should focus on that will help my game more than opening study?
4) If the answer to 3 is no, then what opening should I focus on?

The above quote seems to invert the list, which would screw up a patzer's head by making him worry at all about openings.

Principles of the opening for patzers usually include the following:
a) Knights before Bishops.
b) Castle soon.
c) Move central pawns first.
d) Don't move the same piece twice.

While I have never seen a list that says "Open with e4 as white or else you will severely retard your growth as a chess player", rule b bears most directly on this discussion. Playing e4 lets you castle in fewer moves. Ironically, this points to the importance of closing ranks around the King early in the game.

At any rate, I hope this isn't too far off topic, but a very provocative and interesting claim from Craig!
  
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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #42 - 05/16/09 at 15:44:39
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Greet's "Play The Ruy Lopez" definitely covers Bc5 on moves 3 and 4 (and doesn't seem to think much of it), and given his thoroughness, probably it covers the other lines as well, though I do not have my copy to hand to confirm this.
  

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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #41 - 05/16/09 at 12:22:01
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Are there books, chapters of books, etc which cover either from
Black's point of view or White's point of view, lines where Black plays
an early Bc5?

Either on move, 3, 4, 5 or 6?

Thanks
  
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najdorfslayer
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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #40 - 05/09/09 at 07:50:45
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I agree with you totally, but just saying it may be time for something new. Although it would be a big task covering all the main line Ruy variations.
  
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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #39 - 05/08/09 at 21:52:12
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najdorfslayer wrote on 05/08/09 at 20:03:39:
Khalifman's Opening for White according to Anand Vol 2 is inaccurate is a few ways already even though it was only published in 2003!

For example in the line

1.e4.e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 d5 (The Gajewski variation)

It gives d5 as a ? and 11.exd5 e4 12.Ng5+-
Which is now nonsense as if you look on Chess Base Black has a massive + score!



let's see; the Gajewski only surfaced in 2007 and shocked the whole chessworld because almost nobody thought that one could play that way. Hardly something you can hold against a book published in 2003 (I think Khalifman was one of the few that even considered the move back then).
  
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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #38 - 05/08/09 at 20:03:39
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Khalifman's Opening for White according to Anand Vol 2 is inaccurate is a few ways already even though it was only published in 2003!

For example in the line

1.e4.e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 d5 (The Gajewski variation)

It gives d5 as a ? and 11.exd5 e4 12.Ng5+-
Which is now nonsense as if you look on Chess Base Black has a massive + score!
  
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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #37 - 05/08/09 at 17:34:40
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I've won plenty of games with the Goring Gambit at the 1600-1800 level- most opponents don't know how to deal with it.  But I agree that it isn't a good reason to avoid 1...e5- for one thing, if Black wants to avoid the tricks and traps following 4...dxc3, but also avoid the drawish Capablanca endgames after 4...d5, then 4...Nf6 and 4...Nge7 are perfectly good responses.  4...Qe7 might also be playable but I think it gives White the additional possibility 5.Bd3 (as opposed to 3...Qe7 in the Danish against which White has nothing better than 4.cxd4 Qxe4+).

Note that after 4...d5 there is the deviation 5.Bd3 which does not promise an advantage but avoids those endings (5...dxe4, 5...Nf6 and 5...Bg4 are fine for Black, and the risky 5...dxc3 is playable).  3...d5 against the Danish has a similar problem after 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 Nc6 6.Be3.

After 4...dxc3 5.Bc4 cxb2 6.Bxb2 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 Nf6, I think the approaches with 8.0-0!? are underestimated as well as being largely unexplored- checking through the lines with Fritz showed that it's surprisingly easy for Black to go wrong.  Still, there's probably a way for Black to get the better game even here.
  
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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #36 - 05/08/09 at 16:25:31
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MNb wrote on 05/07/09 at 20:28:21:
Schaakhamster wrote on 05/07/09 at 06:47:59:
Once you have navigated the tactical waters of the Danish equality seems a real possibilty early in the opening even if white doesn't make a mistake.


You're too modest. Equality is not a real possibility, it's a fact. After 4.Bc4 (or 5.Bc4 in Görings move order) cxb2 it's even more. (Note, if Markovich were consequent, he would have called 5...Nc6 6.Nf3 Bb4 the Göring Gambit). White should play 4.Nxc3, a move some American nut baptized Half-Danish (brrrr). White has sufficient compensation then, but not more. No offense to Markovich of course; he is certainly not a nut.

The Göring Gambit via 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 is still a great opening for young improving players: all white pieces go to natural squares, there are some basic threats, moves are easy to find. My son has scared the other kids of his club to death last few months - nobody of them dares to play ...e5 anymore. Smiley



how is anyone scared of the boring goring? You play it once and you're scare the first time... the second time around you only worry you might get a draw instead of a win but you know you won't lose so there is no fear. Why stop e5 cause of goring? This is the last reason on earth to quit e5... one of the easiest openings to neutralize.
  
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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #35 - 05/08/09 at 15:41:40
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MNb wrote on 05/07/09 at 20:28:21:
The Göring Gambit via 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 is still a great opening for young improving players: all white pieces go to natural squares, there are some basic threats, moves are easy to find. My son has scared the other kids of his club to death last few months - nobody of them dares to play ...e5 anymore. Smiley


I fully agree.  I didn't know you had a son, by the way, still less one of 14 years.  Congratulations (sounds a little funny but I guess that's what I mean).  I'm glad he's with the game, too.
  

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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #34 - 05/08/09 at 15:38:10
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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #33 - 05/07/09 at 20:28:21
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Schaakhamster wrote on 05/07/09 at 06:47:59:
Once you have navigated the tactical waters of the Danish equality seems a real possibilty early in the opening even if white doesn't make a mistake.


You're too modest. Equality is not a real possibility, it's a fact. After 4.Bc4 (or 5.Bc4 in Görings move order) cxb2 it's even more. (Note, if Markovich were consequent, he would have called 5...Nc6 6.Nf3 Bb4 the Göring Gambit). White should play 4.Nxc3, a move some American nut baptized Half-Danish (brrrr). White has sufficient compensation then, but not more. No offense to Markovich of course; he is certainly not a nut.

The Göring Gambit via 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 is still a great opening for young improving players: all white pieces go to natural squares, there are some basic threats, moves are easy to find. My son has scared the other kids of his club to death last few months - nobody of them dares to play ...e5 anymore. Smiley
  

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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #32 - 05/07/09 at 12:35:59
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I agree about 3...d5.  I maintain that acceptance of the double pawn offer followed by ...Nc6 and soon ...Bb4 is the way to go.  It would require a lot of preparation, and considering the infrequence with which one encounters that Danish, 3...d5 is much more practical.  But if you knew your opponent played the Danish, it would be a different story.

Of course there is the single pawn offer, but I think Black has good winning chances there as well.
  

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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #31 - 05/07/09 at 12:31:21
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Markovich wrote on 05/07/09 at 12:24:59:
Once you have navigated the tactical waters of the Danish, the win seems a real possibilty even if white doesn't make a mistake.



I'll take your word on it; to me the mainline and 3... d5 seem equal and a bit drawish. Haven't looked at other lines.
  
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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #30 - 05/07/09 at 12:24:59
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Once you have navigated the tactical waters of the Danish, the win seems a real possibilty even if white doesn't make a mistake.

The claims that my respected chessfriend CraigEvans makes about the supposed potency of the Belgrade after 5...Be7 remind me of a visionary's reports of his meetings with God -- no offense intended either to Craig or to religious believers -- I just find them hard to believe.

I suppose that Craig and I will have to have some games of chess before he'll convince me that White has any real winning chances there.
  

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Re: New Spanish mainline repertoire book for White
Reply #29 - 05/07/09 at 06:47:59
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CraigEvans wrote on 05/06/09 at 20:55:05:
I tend to see a lot less of 1...e5, but it's true that from my experience the blck players play the main line Lopezes or Two Knights/Italian positions pretty well on the whole, whereas their defensive play against the Belgrade/Danish is pretty suspect at times.

Still, for people who want to play the Lopez, of course it's a great opening, and probably objectively second-strongest for white after the BDG.  Wink


I haven't studied the Belgrade good enough to say anything about that but the Danish doesn't really bother me.

I do wonder if the suspect play of your opponents is down to lack of knowledge of how to play against these openings. Once you have navigated the tactical waters of the Danish equality seems a real possibilty early in the opening even if white doesn't make a mistake. In the Ruy this doesn't seem the case.

An other explanation could be the short-term consequences of mistake for black in the opening.  If black plays a faulty move against for instance the Danish the consequences are quite dire, often leading to defeat in a few moves. After a mistake in the Ruy Lopez you'll often, as black, suffer a long time but due to imperfect play at our level he might be able to escape due to mistakes of his oppponent.

These factors might explain the dominance of the Ruy Lopez at GM-level: they have the skills to punish black if he goes wrong and there are no easy equalisers for black.
  
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