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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Taimanov vs Kan (Read 18237 times)
jarechu
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #26 - 05/06/09 at 00:29:11
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I have just realised that 14.Bf4 is almost a novelty. It have been played this March for the first time in a very bad game by White. So all lines in the book are analysis and probably the source for the Jeroen Noomen book was the Engine Room at Playchess.com.
  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #25 - 05/05/09 at 21:31:39
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I have been reading the Classic Line recommendation by Hellsten in the Kan and I found this kind of positions don't suit me. Also I have found in the Jeroen Noomen Book for Rybka Aquarium a second line for Hellsten to be very annoying after 14.Bf4:

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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be2 b5 7. O-O Bb7 8. Re1
Nc6 9. Nxc6 dxc6 10. e5 Rd8 11. Bd3 c5 12. Qh5 g6 13. Qh3 Bg7 14. Bf4 Ne7 15.
a4 c4 16. Bf1 b4 17. Ne4 Nf5 18. c3!
({Instead of Hellsten's} 18. Nd6+ Nxd6
19. exd6 Qc8!=) 18... O-O 19. g4 bxc3 20. bxc3 Bxe4 21. Rxe4 Ne7 {And
I think this position is at least += because c4 pawn is very weak and White
has the bishop pair.}


I also have checked prior deviations  (10... Ne7) and I don't feel confortable in the resulting positions, for example, in this line:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be2 b5 7. O-O Bb7 8. Re1
Nc6 9. Nxc6 dxc6 10. e5 Ne7 11. Ne4 Nf5 12. Bf4 Rd8 13. Bd3 c5 14. Qh5 Qc6 15.
f3!?


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And White pressure is annoying (if not, I don't like this kind of simetrical structure and slow development by Black).

So I hope to find "better" positions to my like in the Taimanov 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be2 Nc6. This way of reaching the Taimanov is because I want to avoid the English Attack and The Kalashnikov type after 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nb5 d6 6. Bf4 e5 7. Be3
  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #24 - 05/01/09 at 11:06:43
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On the Kan, Kamsky has played this well recently and Kramnik won a very nice game with it against Leko at Monaco . 

With the Taimanov you do need a line against the English attack as that is critical. I'd say that in making the decision depends to an extent on whether Taimanov players like the Maroczy bind lines. Anatoly Karpov was rather good with white in those lines but I know theory seems to have neutralised this.
  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #23 - 04/30/09 at 07:16:01
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MNb wrote on 04/29/09 at 11:04:46:
I know you weren't talking the objective evaluation. That's why I have looked at it a bit a long time ago from White's perspective. And I rejected it because the questions I asked remained unanswered satisfactorily.
Initially my logic was along the same lines of thought as yours - Nb1 should get quicker into play than Na3. Until I realized that that was not necessarily the case. The knight on d2 hampers the pressure along the  d-file, so Nb1 also takes at least two moves to develop. What's more, Black can save a tempo by not playing b7-b5. So I don't think your argument "if Black wants this he would have played ...e7-e5" is correct. If I am correct I would say that playing a respectable and aggressive opening with an extra tempo is a huge psychological advantage. Again, that's how I felt when I considered playing it as White. As you said, that's quite important on my level.

You're talking to someone who has tried the Sveshnikov, the Kalashnikov, and the Boleslavsky (6.Be2 e5 and 6.f3 e5 in the Classical) all with bad results, even if White usually chose non-critical lines! This pawn structure only brings back bad memories. So if nothing else, the Anti-Taimanov would be a dangerous psychological weapon against me. Wink 

Of course White should only choose it if he is comfortable in Sveshnikov-type positions, that goes without saying. Unless you can argue that Black is actually better in the Anti-Taimanov I maintain that it is a good practical weapon if White likes the position type and Black does not.
  

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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #22 - 04/29/09 at 16:34:36
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Antillian wrote on 04/29/09 at 15:23:25:
I have played the Kan quite a bit in blitz.  I am amazed by the number of people who try to play the English Attack. I would say approximately 20% to 30% of my games on ICC follow this identical sequence:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 Bb4 7. Qd2 Nf6 8. f3 d5


I can imagine that that sort of thing might be indeed be quite common, perhaps more so than misguided attempts at playing the Yugoslav against the Accelerated Dragon.  Then again, I have the impression that an 1800-player (e.g. the OP) playing the Taimanov/Paulsen would be likely to face many opponents who, even if their response is to play Nc3/Be2/Be3/0-0, do not know of that funny 9. Na4 move.
  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #21 - 04/29/09 at 15:23:25
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I have played the Kan quite a bit in blitz.  I am amazed by the number of people who try to play the English Attack. I would say approximately 20% to 30% of my games on ICC follow this identical sequence:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 Bb4 7. Qd2 Nf6 8. f3 d5
  

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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #20 - 04/29/09 at 11:04:46
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I know you weren't talking the objective evaluation. That's why I have looked at it a bit a long time ago from White's perspective. And I rejected it because the questions I asked remained unanswered satisfactorily.
Initially my logic was along the same lines of thought as yours - Nb1 should get quicker into play than Na3. Until I realized that that was not necessarily the case. The knight on d2 hampers the pressure along the  d-file, so Nb1 also takes at least two moves to develop. What's more, Black can save a tempo by not playing b7-b5. So I don't think your argument "if Black wants this he would have played ...e7-e5" is correct. If I am correct I would say that playing a respectable and aggressive opening with an extra tempo is a huge psychological advantage. Again, that's how I felt when I considered playing it as White. As you said, that's quite important on my level.
  

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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #19 - 04/29/09 at 06:12:01
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MNb wrote on 04/29/09 at 02:24:48:
Stigma wrote on 04/28/09 at 13:42:05:

One issue with the Taimanov is the "Anti-Taimanov" 5.Nb5 d6 6.Bf4 e5 7.Be3.


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Be3 is not the most critical line against the Svesjnikov. Yet the Anti-Taimanov is likely to transpose to it, isn't it?

If you read my post, I was talking not about the objective evaluation of the position, but about pawn structures and style. This is the only line in the Taimanov where Black must play with a hole on d5, and if that's what Black really wanted he would have played the Sveshnikov or the Kalashnikov. Taste and personal preferences matter in practice, especially on club level. The Anti-Taimanov is first of all a psychological weapon; though to be fair it has been played by quite a few GMs, Leko to mention one.

MNb wrote on 04/29/09 at 03:20:53:
And after 8.Bg5 the big question is - is the Queen's Knight on b1 better than on c3? Something I dare to doubt.

Actually it is possible to argue that it is. In the Sveshnikov White must retreat the b5 knight to a3 since c3 is occupied; and this a3 kinght often becomes a problem piece which requires several moves to get back into play. In the Anti-Taimanov the b5-knight retreats to c3 and the b1 knight can go to d2, with arguably more harmonious development.
  

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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #18 - 04/29/09 at 03:20:53
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And after 8.Bg5 the big question is - is the Queen's Knight on b1 better than on c3? Something I dare to doubt.
  

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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #17 - 04/29/09 at 02:48:04
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MNb wrote on 04/29/09 at 02:24:48:
Stigma wrote on 04/28/09 at 13:42:05:

One issue with the Taimanov is the "Anti-Taimanov" 5.Nb5 d6 6.Bf4 e5 7.Be3.


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Be3 is not the most critical line against the Svesjnikov. Yet the Anti-Taimanov is likely to transpose to it, isn't it?


On 5. Nb5 d6 6. Bf4 e5 7. Be3 Nf6 there is 8. Bg5 as played by e.g. Fischer; also 7...a6 is a major move.
  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #16 - 04/29/09 at 02:24:48
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Stigma wrote on 04/28/09 at 13:42:05:

One issue with the Taimanov is the "Anti-Taimanov" 5.Nb5 d6 6.Bf4 e5 7.Be3.


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Be3 is not the most critical line against the Svesjnikov. Yet the Anti-Taimanov is likely to transpose to it, isn't it?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #15 - 04/28/09 at 18:27:02
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Stigma wrote on 04/28/09 at 17:57:16:
Schaakhamster wrote on 04/28/09 at 17:00:38:

I am considering the Kan but you don't have to be blind for the most critical variation. When I considering an opening I think that 2 things are very important: do I get adequate play (for my liking) against 
1) the most popular variations
2) the most critical variations


We really agree, don't we? My point was exactly that you don't want to find yourself in positions you dislike a lot the time, especially if the line is also considered critical. Your "very annying" comment suggested to me that you shouldn't be playing the Kan, but maybe I misread you... 
Btw. I have the same relationship with the Sveshnikov; It's a fine opening but not when I play it, so I gave it up a long time ago.  Wink


I'm yet to come to a definite conclusion about the Kan. My first impressions are favourable but the Bd3 + c4 line I have study closely. I am using Hellsten's excellent book as a guide, so whatever the conclusion I reach it will wellinformed  Wink

My "very annoying" comment is based on a few offhand games and the general opinion in the books and is perhaps a bit overstated. But in my experience each opening, certainly as black, has variations I find "annoying". You either learn to deal with it or you move on.
  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #14 - 04/28/09 at 17:57:16
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Schaakhamster wrote on 04/28/09 at 17:00:38:

I am considering the Kan but you don't have to be blind for the most critical variation. When I considering an opening I think that 2 things are very important: do I get adequate play (for my liking) against 
1) the most popular variations
2) the most critical variations


We really agree, don't we? My point was exactly that you don't want to find yourself in positions you dislike a lot the time, especially if the line is also considered critical. Your "very annying" comment suggested to me that you shouldn't be playing the Kan, but maybe I misread you... 
Btw. I have the same relationship with the Sveshnikov; It's a fine opening but not when I play it, so I gave it up a long time ago.  Wink
  

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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #13 - 04/28/09 at 17:07:49
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Hellsten's book is excellent (& I've had more interesting games with his lines than the lines from Delchev's also-excellent book).  I will say that the Kan lines that combine Bd3 with Qg4 - ...g6 - Qe2 can be a bit hard to handle though.
 
Still, I think the mainline Taimanov/Paulsen (1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 e6, 3 d4 cd, 4 Nxd4 Nc6, 5 Nc3 Qc7, 6 Be2 a6, 7 Be3 Nf6, 8 O-O Bb4) gets very theory-heavy quickly and you have to want to play that particular line in order to stick with Delchev's repertoire recommendation.
  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #12 - 04/28/09 at 17:00:38
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Stigma wrote on 04/28/09 at 13:42:05:
I don't think the choice is that straightforward; actually I'm trying to make up my mind on this myself.

One issue with the Taimanov is the "Anti-Taimanov" 5.Nb5 d6 6.Bf4 e5 7.Be3. Maybe not White's best try for advantage, but it leads to a very different pawn structure from your typical Kan or Taimanov. It's really a matter of taste whether one allows this or the Hedgehog; though admittedly the Anti-Taimanov is much less popular than 5.Bd3/c4 vs the Kan.

In reality, anyone who thinks that "Bd3 with c4 to follow is very annoying" probably is not considering the Kan in the first place. It's the main line; the Kan is all about elastic, Hedgehog-type positions and if you don't like them you're not a Kan player. The Kan scores very well on amateur level, and the main reason for that is many White players are not very good at playing with a space advantage.

Another issue is the many White players, particularly below 2000, who play Nc3, Be2 and usually Be3 and 0-0 against almost any Sicilian. In the Taimanov this is a critical main line and not easy to get winning chances against, whether one plays with ...d6/Be7 (-> Classical Scheveningen) or ...Bb4. If I'm playing for a win I would rather have the option of a ...Nbd7/b5/Bb7 setup, as is still possible in the Kan.


I am considering the Kan but you don't have to be blind for the most critical variation. When I considering an opening I think that 2 things are very important: do I get adequate play (for my liking) against 
1) the most popular variations
2) the most critical variations

  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #11 - 04/28/09 at 13:42:05
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I don't think the choice is that straightforward; actually I'm trying to make up my mind on this myself.

One issue with the Taimanov is the "Anti-Taimanov" 5.Nb5 d6 6.Bf4 e5 7.Be3. Maybe not White's best try for advantage, but it leads to a very different pawn structure from your typical Kan or Taimanov. It's really a matter of taste whether one allows this or the Hedgehog; though admittedly the Anti-Taimanov is much less popular than 5.Bd3/c4 vs the Kan.

In reality, anyone who thinks that "Bd3 with c4 to follow is very annoying" probably is not considering the Kan in the first place. It's the main line; the Kan is all about elastic, Hedgehog-type positions and if you don't like them you're not a Kan player. The Kan scores very well on amateur level, and the main reason for that is many White players are not very good at playing with a space advantage.

Another issue is the many White players, particularly below 2000, who play Nc3, Be2 and usually Be3 and 0-0 against almost any Sicilian. In the Taimanov this is a critical main line and not easy to get winning chances against, whether one plays with ...d6/Be7 (-> Classical Scheveningen) or ...Bb4. If I'm playing for a win I would rather have the option of a ...Nbd7/b5/Bb7 setup, as is still possible in the Kan.
  

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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #10 - 04/27/09 at 18:18:59
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I too believe that the Taimanov better suits the OP's specifications.  Regarding the danger that exists for Black in Kan hedgehog positions, I think of games like Commons-Peev 1976, Nunn-Gheorghiu 1983 and Hillarp Persson-Agrest 2008.
  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #9 - 04/27/09 at 18:00:46
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Holbox wrote on 04/27/09 at 15:42:43:
If nobody can make me think in an opposite way I believe that after reaching the hedgehog position black has all the cards to win the game. No pieces have been exchanged, and black has a solid and realiable position in which the better player will win. 



again after just taking a glance at Hellsten "Play the Kan" : timing seems everything for black in these hedgehodge positions. I wouldn't want to play this without truly understanding what going on.
  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #8 - 04/27/09 at 15:42:43
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If nobody can make me think in an opposite way I believe that after reaching the hedgehog position black has all the cards to win the game. No pieces have been exchanged, and black has a solid and realiable position in which the better player will win. 

  

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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #7 - 04/27/09 at 13:48:48
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Schaakhamster wrote on 04/27/09 at 13:47:15:
Markovich wrote on 04/27/09 at 13:42:53:
LeeRoth wrote on 04/26/09 at 13:51:48:


Taimanov.  If you play the Kan you still need to deal with the Bind.  


Is this true?  I had the impression that the early c4 wasn't very strong against the Kan.  Black plays Nf6, Bb4 and so forth.  I would have said, Taimanov because I don't like that bishop sitting on d3.



my very shallow impression is that Bd3 with c4 to follow is very annoying. A sort of delayed Bind if you will.

Directly c4 doesn't seem to be such a problem. Hellsten goes for the hedgehodge approach while chesspub seems to like the Bb4 approach better. Both seems to be more active then the Bind in the Acc. Dragon.


You may be right.  That shows what I know about the Kan.
  

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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #6 - 04/27/09 at 13:47:15
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Markovich wrote on 04/27/09 at 13:42:53:
LeeRoth wrote on 04/26/09 at 13:51:48:


Taimanov.  If you play the Kan you still need to deal with the Bind.  


Is this true?  I had the impression that the early c4 wasn't very strong against the Kan.  Black plays Nf6, Bb4 and so forth.  I would have said, Taimanov because I don't like that bishop sitting on d3.



my very shallow impression is that Bd3 with c4 to follow is very annoying. A sort of delayed Bind if you will.

Directly c4 doesn't seem to be such a problem. Hellsten goes for the hedgehodge approach while chesspub seems to like the Bb4 approach better. Both seems to be more active then the Bind in the Acc. Dragon.
  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #5 - 04/27/09 at 13:42:53
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LeeRoth wrote on 04/26/09 at 13:51:48:


Taimanov.  If you play the Kan you still need to deal with the Bind.  


Is this true?  I had the impression that the early c4 wasn't very strong against the Kan.  Black plays ...Nf6, ...Bb4 and so forth.  I would have said, Taimanov because I don't like that bishop sitting on d3.

However, since limited theory is a criterion, I did notice that the Kan with 4...a6 5.Bd3 Ne7 was featured in the most recent (April 2009) update, with the comment that it's a reasonable Sicilian with not much theory.
  

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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #4 - 04/26/09 at 13:51:48
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Randy wrote on 04/26/09 at 11:52:30:
My main defence against 1.e4 is the Accelerated Dragon, but lately i found it very hard to fight for a full point in Maroczy Bind when I have a must win situation. So I am thinking to move on Kan or Taimanov, at least as a weapon in must win situations. I have both Play the Kan by Hellsten and The Safest Sicilian by Delchev.  
As I have no experience with 2....e6 Sicilians and my time for opening study is quite limited, what from above should i choose? Main criteria: 
- limited theory; few or very few forced drawish variations; enough winning chances for black (even if the risk is slightly higher).
And last question, what other documentation will be helpfull, beside the above books and chesspublishing subscription?


Taimanov.  If you play the Kan you still need to deal with the Bind.  In the Taimanov, White's attempts to play c4 are less worrisome for Black.  At club level, the Taimanov gives plenty of winning chances.  The Delchev/Semkov book is excellent and all you'll need. 
  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #3 - 04/26/09 at 13:36:42
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #2 - 04/26/09 at 13:33:19
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sorry Smiley. Adult amateur player (40y), around 1800 rating.
  
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Re: Taimanov vs Kan
Reply #1 - 04/26/09 at 12:48:06
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We have the symptoms but no patient. Level? Experience?
  
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Taimanov vs Kan
04/26/09 at 11:52:30
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My main defence against 1.e4 is the Accelerated Dragon, but lately i found it very hard to fight for a full point in Maroczy Bind when I have a must win situation. So I am thinking to move on Kan or Taimanov, at least as a weapon in must win situations. I have both Play the Kan by Hellsten and The Safest Sicilian by Delchev.   
As I have no experience with 2....e6 Sicilians and my time for opening study is quite limited, what from above should i choose? Main criteria: 
- limited theory; few or very few forced drawish variations; enough winning chances for black (even if the risk is slightly higher).
And last question, what other documentation will be helpfull, beside the above books and chesspublishing subscription?
  
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