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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: 4.f3 idea (Read 75811 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #19 - 04/16/10 at 18:01:25
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[quote]... the game appears in the chesslive.de database ...[/quote]

Hasn't this site -- http://www.chesslive.de/ -- gone defunct? Is there a new one?? If so could you post the link?
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #18 - 04/16/10 at 17:46:15
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Tripler64 wrote on 04/16/10 at 14:21:52:
True, 6..c6 isn't a main line in the sense that e.g. the Zaitsev Spanish is a main line. But the theory on 4.f3 is still evolving and relatively fresh. The line given by Markovich is generally accepted as the main line of 4.f3 with 8.dc being the most irritating move for Black. This is quite difficult for Black to meet and his winning chances seem to be zero (reasonable drwing chances though if B is prepare to soak up a little pressure!) That's why I asked about 6...c6.


It is not difficult for black to meet if prepared, and white has no more winning chances than black in the main lines (that are dead drawn for the most part). Only the lack of winning chances argument stands up.

The only game I've ever lost OTB to 4. f3 (out of 5 games, 4 of which against 2200+ competition, final score being +3 -1 =1) was to IM Taylor when I pressed for more in an equal position. That was also the first time I had ever gotten 4. f3 OTB (the game appears in the chesslive.de database), so my opening play wasn't as good as it should've been.

Many Nimzo players don't bother learning the theory of the opening that deeply (compared to practicioners of the Grunfeld, or Semi-Slav), leading 4. f3 to have tremendous success as a result of the black player being largely unprepared, and white's plans being simple enough that 1600s could probably play the white side.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #17 - 04/16/10 at 15:26:31
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Yeah, I totally agree. When I played 1. d4 exlusively, I relied on 4. f3, and to be honest, scored heavily with it - I'd estimate around 80% OTB. I think that in the main line, despite White's embarrassing tripled c-pawns, the extra pawn and two bishops make a strong impression, especially against weak players who don't understand the plans.
  
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Tripler64
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #16 - 04/16/10 at 14:21:52
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True, 6..c6 isn't a main line in the sense that e.g. the Zaitsev Spanish is a main line. But the theory on 4.f3 is still evolving and relatively fresh. The line given by Markovich is generally accepted as the main line of 4.f3 with 8.dc being the most irritating move for Black. This is quite difficult for Black to meet and his winning chances seem to be zero (reasonable drwing chances though if B is prepare to soak up a little pressure!) That's why I asked about 6...c6.
  
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Markovich
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #15 - 04/15/10 at 19:06:51
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There seem to be a bizillion ways for Black to fight against 4.f3, all of them on the borderline of validity.  The only one I fully respect is 4...d5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.cxd5 Nxd5.  But White has to be completely on his toes in a wide range of other cases, and I haven't always been successful in my struggle to prove White's advantage.  In general though, I revel in White's pawn center and, often as well, in his two bishops.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #14 - 04/15/10 at 17:15:18
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I, for one, am I willing to just taking beatings in the Main Line Ruy Lopez's, all the Open Sicilian lines, until I get them right. I am studying a lot of 1. e4 main lines lately in an attempt to construct a repertoire, so expect some questions quite soon.

I generally agree that it's surprising for a site like this to see so many people posting questions about openings like the Wing Gambit, Ponziani and such, and not that much about main lines like the Bayonet Attack, Main Line Ruy Lopez's, and so on.

However, 6...c6 in the 4. f3 Nimzo Indian isn't exactly a main line. There are at least two moves that get played more in this position (guessing), and about 3-4 moves that get played more often on move 4 right?
  
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Tripler64
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #13 - 04/15/10 at 16:54:27
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I understand that - but there's surely a place for both in an ideal world. Maybe it's time to learn Russian Lips Sealed - I won't say any more!

Feel free to transfer this topic to the general chess section. (I didn't even know there was such a section - sorry.)
  
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Markovich
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #12 - 04/15/10 at 15:37:06
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I was going to move your post to General Chess, but then I noticed that I'm not the moderator here!

Anyway, I agree.  Theory-dodging seems to be what mostly concerns a great many who post here.  But I should amend that.  Many who post here are not-very-strong amateurs, and these people have plausible reasons for preferring, for example, the Ponziani to the Spanish.
  

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Tripler64
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #11 - 04/15/10 at 14:09:27
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Whenever I ask about a main line, no-one responds. Whenever I ask about a sideline, there is always a response.
Perhaps instead of chesspub.com this site should be called sidelinecity.com? I know the moderator of the e4e5 thread pointed out that hardly anyone seems to discuss the mainline Spanish there. Doesn't anyone study main lines? Shocked
They're main lines for a reason: because they provide the richest content, tactically and strategically, i.e. chess at its most complex and stimulating.
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #10 - 04/08/10 at 20:53:39
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Markovich wrote on 04/08/10 at 12:24:52:
Normally I do check, but Yakovich is a source that I have trusted so much before, I allowed myself to become lazy.


Me too, but I also was inclined to trust Yakovich.  I just got lucky that I didn't.  For what it's worth, this forum is a remarkable resource for catching a number of potential blunders involved in blindly following book recommendations.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Markovich
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #9 - 04/08/10 at 12:24:52
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Normally I do check, but Yakovich is a source that I have trusted so much before, I allowed myself to become lazy.
  

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HgMan
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #8 - 04/07/10 at 21:43:32
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Markovich wrote on 04/07/10 at 12:46:05:
HgMan wrote on 04/06/10 at 01:38:05:
Not wholly unrelated, but worth mentioning:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 c5 6.f3 d5 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.dxc5 f5 9.Nh3 Qa5 10.e4 fxe4 11.Ng5 Nf6 after which Yakovich recommends 12.Qd6! Qxc3+ 13.Kf2 Bd7 14.Bb5 Qc2+ 15.Be2!? as better for White.  But the simple 12...h6! looks almost winning for Black...


Yeah, actually I lost a CC game by blindly following Yakovich in that.


I caught myself from the same fate at the last minute.  I'm not sure what prompted me to check: either it looked too straightforward, or I wanted to know why Black couldn't just play 12...h6. 

It does raise an interesting question, though, about when a cc player should start checking published analysis more thoroughly.  On the one hand, the answer is at move 1, and I certainly do give an awful lot of thought and preparation to options within the narrow confines of my mainline repertoire, but it can be awfully tempting to blindly follow repertoire book recommendations a little too far.  Discussion for another thread, perhaps.  I like the Yakovich book very much for what it is, but even good books require a little more scrutiny...
  

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Tripler64
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #7 - 04/07/10 at 14:59:52
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This doesn't have anything to do with this thread, but it does concern a line of 4.f3. I'm curious about this line:
4.a3 Bc3 5.bc3 d5 6.f3 c6 7.e4 (7.e3 is Azmaiparashvili-Macieja 2008 - I know Macieja is a specialist in the NID so I assume he isn't playing this by accident) 7...de4 8.fe4 e5
9.Nf3 Qa5 10.Qd3 Ne4!? 11.Ne5 (11.Qe4 is unclear but B seems okay after 11...Qc3 12.Kf2 Qa1 13.Qe5 Be6)
11...Qc3 12.Qc3 Nc3 13.Bd3 (transposing into some analysis by Volkov) "with compensation" - Black's game isn't easy with the offside Nc3. Maybe 13...f6 14.Nf3 Na4 (14...Na6 15.a4 Nb4 16.Kd2 wins a piece) - does W have just enough for the pawn or more? And how does B play this?

Another line here is 11...0-0!? 12.Bb2 Qb6 13.Rb1 Bf5!? when 14.g4 looks good.
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #6 - 04/07/10 at 12:46:05
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HgMan wrote on 04/06/10 at 01:38:05:
Not wholly unrelated, but worth mentioning:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 c5 6.f3 d5 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.dxc5 f5 9.Nh3 Qa5 10.e4 fxe4 11.Ng5 Nf6 after which Yakovich recommends 12.Qd6! Qxc3+ 13.Kf2 Bd7 14.Bb5 Qc2+ 15.Be2!? as better for White.  But the simple 12...h6! looks almost winning for Black...


Yeah, actually I lost a CC game by blindly following Yakovich in that.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #5 - 04/06/10 at 01:58:06
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MilenPetrov wrote on 05/01/09 at 08:42:16:
In the line ) after 19...Bd7 20.Bxc5 bxc5 21.Qb2 Rf4 22.Qa2 Re8 23.Ng5 Rxf1 24.Rxf1 Qxe5 i do not see any reason why Black should be worse... But it is just a quick look at the position. Maybe I missed something...


You may have - the first move that catches my eye is 19. h4!, and after checking it over quite quickly, it looks as though Black has some problems to solve here.
  
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