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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: 4.f3 idea (Read 81103 times)
Antillian
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #49 - 03/27/11 at 14:15:11
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John Emms used the name "Open Samisch" in the "Easy Guide to the Nimzo-Indian" (Presumably 4.a3 is the "closed" Samisch.) Indeed if you google "open samisch" there are a few hits suggesting that this nomenclature is not unique to Emms.
« Last Edit: 03/27/11 at 15:20:55 by Antillian »  

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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #48 - 03/27/11 at 13:21:50
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I have a rather mundane question. I've read through four pages on 4.f3 without coming on the name for this variation.

I had thought this had a name, but I recently read a Wikipedia article suggesting that it either doesn't have an accepted name. Is there a consensus on what 4.f3 is called?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #47 - 03/13/11 at 16:01:17
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I dont consider myself an expert on these positions, but I will make one more post. Some liens in pgn that I attached had some errors where I blindly followed book and not even Houdini discovered the error sa tfirst sight, but there was better moves for both sides.

If black wants to play something that that is more soild than the pgn line I posted black can also play

[Event "Blitz:5'+2""]
[Site "Eskilstuna"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "Houdini 1.5 w32"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "32"]
[TimeControl "300+2"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4.
f3 c5 5. d5 O-O 6. e4 d6 7. Nge2 (7. Bd3 b5 8. Nge2 (8. dxe6 Bxe6 9. cxb5 a6
$44) 8... Nbd7 9. dxe6 fxe6 10. cxb5 Ne5 $13 11. Bf4 (11. O-O a6 12. Be3 d5 13.
exd5 exd5 14. Bg5 Nxd3 15. Qxd3 Bb7 $44) 11... Nxd3+ 12. Qxd3 d5 13. exd5 exd5
14. O-O d4 15. Ne4 Nxe4 16. fxe4 Be6 $44) 7... b5 8. Nf4 {Shirov} (8. dxe6 Bxe6
9. cxb5 a6 $44) (8. Ng3 Bb7) (8. a3 Ba5) 8... e5 9. Nfe2 Nh5 {
unmentioned by Yakovich} 10. g4 (10. cxb5 f5 $36 {Marin}) 10... Qh4+ 11. Kd2
Nf4 12. Nxf4 exf4 13. cxb5 a6 14. bxa6 Bxa6 15. Kc2 Bxc3 16. bxc3 Nd7 $44 *

  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #46 - 03/12/11 at 14:47:19
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I am repeating my question from a few posts ago.

If one doesn't like the early ..b5 variations (and those messy positions), 
then do the following games represent a good way of playing the Black side?
 
(I have collected and now attached a PGN file including six recent games of "2400+"-rated Black players.)

I am not an expert in this kind of Benoni-like positions, that's why I am asking. ("f3" vs. "b4B + delayed exd5", etc) 
Is there any guideline? Is it playable as Black? (or only against weaker opposition?)
  

4f3_c5_5d5_NID.pgn ( 4 KB | 244 Downloads )

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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bragesjo
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #45 - 03/12/11 at 09:05:10
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Thanks for the input. I will have a look at it Smiley
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #44 - 03/11/11 at 21:26:54
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bragesjo wrote on 03/11/11 at 18:58:42:
Some quick lines in b5 line if anyone is interested. Quick look indicateds that blacks position is very playalbe. I can not give the entire chapter but they seems to improve over Yakovich at several points. I dont have Yakovich book myself but they have references to it in the article.


Shirov-Kramnik, 2010 (1-0) is a critical game for this line. The analysis that appeared on chessbase seemed to think black could equalize, but my own investigations just showed a furiously complicated position that is wildly unclear. Further testing is definitely needed for the entire line.

After 4...c5 5. d5 0-0 6. e4 b5 7. e5 Ne8 8. f4 exd5 9. cxd5 d6 10. Nf3 my preference is for Nc7 (Baum-Dutra Neto, 2008, 1/2-1/2) instead of Kramnik's choice of 10...c4 based on what I've looked at.
  

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FIDE based on just 27 games.
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bragesjo
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #43 - 03/11/11 at 18:58:42
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Some quick lines in b5 line if anyone is interested. Quick look indicateds that blacks position is very playalbe. I can not give the entire chapter but they seems to improve over Yakovich at several points. I dont have Yakovich book myself but they have references to it in the article.
  

nimzof3.pgn ( 2 KB | 238 Downloads )
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #42 - 03/11/11 at 14:37:03
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Klick wrote on 03/01/11 at 16:31:45:
The line which made me quit 4.f3 vs the Nimzo and in which a strong white player recently lost as white is 4.f3 c5 5.d5 b5: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1605979


The book "Dangerous Weapons: The Nimzo Indian" has a chapter called "A souped up Blumenfeld" feutering the move order 5 .. 0-0 6 e4 b5 and it seems to transpose to that game.

I have not had  time to study it yet, busy at work but looking at the diagrams suggests the the position is a total mess where anything can happen.
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #41 - 03/02/11 at 13:36:15
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Klick wrote on 03/01/11 at 16:31:45:
The line which made me quit 4.f3 vs the Nimzo and in which a strong white player recently lost as white is 4.f3 c5 5.d5 b5: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1605979

O.K., maybe this was another unanswerable question of mine. There had been many. 
Then I'll try to be more exact.

How do you think the concrete variations following 5.d5 Nh5 are good for Black?
Or is it better to strive for a Benoni-type position?
(Even if it is a strong reply, I don't like Klick's suggestion, the look of the Blumenfeld-like 5..b5 whatsoever.)
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #40 - 03/01/11 at 16:31:45
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The line which made me quit 4.f3 vs the Nimzo and in which a strong white player recently lost as white is 4.f3 c5 5.d5 b5: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1605979
  

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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #39 - 02/28/11 at 19:44:39
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I hope I have not asked this yet...  Undecided

I am constructing my Nimzo repertoire.
4.f3 c5 is my choice as Black 
(because I prefer 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 c5 6.f3 Nc6 7.e4 d6 over 6..d5 7.cxd5 Nxd5 etc)
but I don't know much about it.

What lines should I pay the most attention to? (any recommended model games?)
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #38 - 02/20/11 at 23:50:45
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Nice games.  But of course, the second game is a Botvinnik System, which is considered by most people to be quite good for White.  Black has to play 6...c5 and then recapture on d5 with his knight, as I believe you'll agree.  After that, I don't think either side's game is so easy to play in those positions where White's pawns are miserable after dxc5, yet he has an extra one and the two bishops into the bargain.  I've managed to lose miserably from both sides in that variation, though I've won some nice games also.  That is what I personally consider to be the main challenge to 4.f3.  But I'm interested to hear of your success with 4...c5.  

If your opponents are playing 4...d5 and recapturing on d5 with the pawn, I can understand why you think 4...d5 is awful for Black.
  

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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #37 - 02/20/11 at 15:27:59
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It's been my experience in CC that 4...c5 is vastly superior to 4...d5 against the 4. f3 variation. Here's an example of my own usage of 4...c5 to reach a winning endgame against my CC opponent on ICCF:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 c5 5.d5 O-O 6.e4 d6 7.Bd2 exd5 8.cxd5 Nh5 9.Qe2 f5 10.O-O-O Re8 11.Nh3 Nd7 12.Qe3 Nhf6 13.Ng5 Nb6 14.Bb5 Re7 15.Qf4 h6 16.Ne6 Bxe6 17.dxe6 a6 18.Bd3 fxe4 19.Nxe4 Bxd2+ 20.Rxd2 Rxe6 21.Nxf6+ Qxf6 22.Qxf6 Rxf6 23.Be4 Ra7 24.Rhd1 Nc8 25.Rd5 b5 26.Kb1 Kf7 27.g4 Ke7 28.g5 hxg5 29.Rxg5 Kf8 30.Rh5 Ne7 31.Rh8+ Kf7 32.Rd8 Nf5 33.Rg1 Ke7 34.Rg8 Ke6 35.Re8+ Re7 36.Bxf5+ Rxf5 37.Re1+ Re5 38.Rxe5+ dxe5 39.Ra8 Rf7 40.Rxa6+ Kd5 41.Ra3 Kd4 42.Rb3 g5 43.Kc2 c4 44.Rxb5 Rxf3 45.Rb8 Rf2+ 46.Kc1 g4 

I've got a won endgame position after the 46th move. Below is another ICCF game where I have white and have reached a winning position quite quickly versus one of the 4...d5 lines:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 d5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 O-O 7.cxd5 exd5 8.e3 Re8 9.Bd3 b6 10.Ne2 c5 11.O-O Ba6 12.Ng3 Bxd3 13.Qxd3 Nc6 14.Bb2 c4 15.Qe2 h5 16.e4 dxe4 17.fxe4 h4 18.Nh5 Nxe4 19.Qxc4 Qd7 20.Rf4 Na5 21.Qd3 f5 22.Raf1 Rf8 23.Rxh4 Rae8 24.c4 g5 25.Rh3 g4 26.Rh4 Qc7 27.d5 Nxc4 28.d6 

I've in fact reached many winning and nearly winning positions when black opts for 4...d5, while 4...c5 leaves white with a lack-luster middlegame battle. I just don't understand why d5 remains the 'main' line when c5 is clearly better in meeting the 4. f3 variation.


  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #36 - 01/18/11 at 12:50:37
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Anand too now, as well as in his WC match vs Kramnik of course. I do think that the 4 .. d5 stuff isn't hugely easy equality. Slightly more comfortable for white somehow and its hardly forcing so should be scope to find ideas and probe.

Not lethal either but not really huge fun to play as black (I've only tried it as white). Which is likely all you can ask for vs the Nimzo.

Nice to hear that about 4 .. Nc6 5 e4 actually Smiley (and 5 a3 o-o).
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #35 - 01/18/11 at 08:52:00
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Everyone is quoting Yakovich here but a more recent source os Moskalenko's "revolutionalise" book where he spends many pages analysing 4.f3. If i remember correctly in the last pages he gives some variations as unclear without tring too much for White but i would expect from you at least a discussion of his ideas.

Btw, Kramnik played 4.f3 with White yesterday in Wijk aan Zee!
  
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