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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: 4.f3 idea (Read 79679 times)
NeverGiveUp
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #64 - 08/22/11 at 09:53:37
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Vass wrote on 08/20/11 at 19:34:52:

And you are not afraid of 9... d5!  Huh

Well it is a good move. I would continue 10.e5 with the idea 10. ... Ne4 11.Ne2 cd4: 12.cd4: Qa5+ 13.Bd2 Nd2: 14.Qd2: Qd2:+ 15.Kd2: Na5 16.cd5:!? Nb3+ 17.Kc3 Na1: 18.d6! when white will follow up with Ra1: and has excellent compensation for the exchange (a very remarkable idea of my computer). 
Black's best is probably 10. ... dc4: 11.Bc4: Nd5 12.Ne2 with equality. But I expect OTB that not many black players will go d5.
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #63 - 08/20/11 at 19:34:52
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/19/11 at 10:39:33:
Point taken Vass: thanks for your valuable input.

Must admit I'm not so keen on playing 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 c5 5.a3 Bc3:+ 6.bc3: Nc6 7.e4 d6 with white, especially against a well-prepared opponent. White's problem is he wants to go Bd3 & Ne2 but Bd3 immediately loses a pawn. You are right the c4 pawn is doomed here and white may not have enough to show for it.

But I'm also not very keen on 5.d5 b5!? which is very complex and messy and black may be well prepared and may be doing well theoretically.

I am looking at several options on how to tackle the nimzo with white for the coming season and my latest idea is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bc3:+ 5.bc3: c5 6.e3 Nc6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.e4!? a very interesting pawn sac with the point 8. ... cd4: 9.cd4: Nd4: 10.e5 Qa5+ 11.Kf1 Ne8 (11. ... Qe5:?? 12.Bb2) 12.Bd2 Qc7 13.Bb4 d6 14.Bh7:+ Kh7: 15.Qd4: a5 16.ed6: Qd7 17.Bc5 and white is a pawn up. 

And you are not afraid of 9... d5!  Huh
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #62 - 08/19/11 at 10:39:33
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Point taken Vass: thanks for your valuable input.

Must admit I'm not so keen on playing 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 c5 5.a3 Bc3:+ 6.bc3: Nc6 7.e4 d6 with white, especially against a well-prepared opponent. White's problem is he wants to go Bd3 & Ne2 but Bd3 immediately loses a pawn. You are right the c4 pawn is doomed here and white may not have enough to show for it.

But I'm also not very keen on 5.d5 b5!? which is very complex and messy and black may be well prepared and may be doing well theoretically.

I am looking at several options on how to tackle the nimzo with white for the coming season and my latest idea is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bc3:+ 5.bc3: c5 6.e3 Nc6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.e4!? a very interesting pawn sac with the point 8. ... cd4: 9.cd4: Nd4: 10.e5 Qa5+ 11.Kf1 Ne8 (11. ... Qe5:?? 12.Bb2) 12.Bd2 Qc7 13.Bb4 d6 14.Bh7:+ Kh7: 15.Qd4: a5 16.ed6: Qd7 17.Bc5 and white is a pawn up.
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #61 - 08/19/11 at 09:39:09
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/18/11 at 14:16:10:
Vass wrote on 08/18/11 at 10:08:35:

The best game for both sides in this variation seems to be 
Diez Del Corral, Jesus (2415) - Olafsson, Helgi (2270), Malta, 1980 1/2 which followed:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. f3 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Nc6 7. e4 d6 8. Be3 Qa5 9. Qd2 b6 10. Bd3 cxd4 11. cxd4 Qxd2+ 12. Kxd2 Na5 13. Rb1 Ba6 14. c5 Bxd3 15. Kxd3 dxc5 16. dxc5 Nd7 17. cxb6 axb6 18. Nh3 Ne5+ 19. Ke2 Nac4
All I can say for this game is that its quality is like Rybka played vs Houdini, except 17. Nh3!? which is not crucial.
So imho white has to abandon this 5. a3?!. And probably Yakovich knew it.  Wink

I agree that in this variation the idea Qa5 followed by exchanging on d2 is good for black. But white can avoid it by either playing 8.Ne2 or 9.Kf2!?. In particular this latter possibility looks attractive to me.

Well, after 8. Ne2 and 9. Kf2 (or both in the reverse order) the plan for black is simple - 8... 0-0, 9... b6, 10... h6 (to avoid the Bg5-pin), 11... Ba6, 12... Rc8 and 13... Na5 (or some in a reverse order), and even Qc7 next if needed, on almost everything white plays. The c4-pawn is doomed if not d4xc5 (not a good looking move at all). The chances for an attack for white are not big. Why enter into it?  Huh
Edit: Opposing the black's attack over c4, the only plan for white can be d4-d5 after all, but white has to find the right timing for it or will be dead with this king on f2. The plan with e4-e5 seems suicidal to me, too..  Wink
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #60 - 08/18/11 at 14:16:10
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Vass wrote on 08/18/11 at 10:08:35:

The best game for both sides in this variation seems to be 
Diez Del Corral, Jesus (2415) - Olafsson, Helgi (2270), Malta, 1980 1/2 which followed:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. f3 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Nc6 7. e4 d6 8. Be3 Qa5 9. Qd2 b6 10. Bd3 cxd4 11. cxd4 Qxd2+ 12. Kxd2 Na5 13. Rb1 Ba6 14. c5 Bxd3 15. Kxd3 dxc5 16. dxc5 Nd7 17. cxb6 axb6 18. Nh3 Ne5+ 19. Ke2 Nac4
All I can say for this game is that its quality is like Rybka played vs Houdini, except 17. Nh3!? which is not crucial.
So imho white has to abandon this 5. a3?!. And probably Yakovich knew it.  Wink

I agree that in this variation the idea Qa5 followed by exchanging on d2 is good for black. But white can avoid it by either playing 8.Ne2 or 9.Kf2!?. In particular this latter possibility looks attractive to me.
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #59 - 08/18/11 at 11:33:37
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/18/11 at 08:08:01:
1.What is the current verdict on 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 c5 5.d5 b5!?


I don't know what is "the current verdict" on this extremely hard to play for both sides variation. All I can say is that maybe black has to follow the game Gudmundur Gislason (2328) - Bjorgvin Jonsson (2364), Reykjavik 1993

Now 12... 0-0! (12... Qb8!?) seems to be enough for dynamic equality. For example: 13. Qc5 Qb8 14. f4 Rc8 15. Kf2 d6 16. Qe3 Na5 17. Rd1 Nc4 18. Qd4 Nxb2 19. Rd2 Rc4 20. Qxd6 Qxd6 21. Rxd6 Rxc3 22. Bxb2 Rc2+ 23. Ke3 (23. Kg1 Bb7 =) 23... Rxb2 24. Rxa6 Rxg2 25. Rd1 Rxh2 26. Rxa7 =
As for 11. Kf2! 0-0 12. Rd1 Re8! 13. Bf4 which is following the game Avigdor Bykhovsky (2495) - Uffe Vinter-Schou (2379), Hastings 1990, I think 13... Qf6!? now is giving black some prospects for a compensation for the pawn after 14. Qxd7 Bxe2 15. Nxe2 Rad8 ... and so on..
Anyway, if you want to know what is "the verdict" on some 'x'-variation, just ask a good correspondent player: "Will you play this 'x'-variation in your corr. games?".
And he'll probably tell you: "Why not? Maybe in a tournament when I don't care for my results."  Grin
I would tell you the same as a second player in this variation though I'm not pretending to be so good to give some verdict on it.  Wink
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #58 - 08/18/11 at 10:47:44
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/18/11 at 08:08:01:
2.What is the current verdict on 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 c5 5.d5 d6 6.e4 Bc3:+ 7.bc3: e5?


I don't like this setup for black. As a correspondent chess player I've studied this variation through and through. Especially the stem game Pal Benko (2408) - Lajos Portisch (2523), Budapest 1956 which I find very instructive:

I think this is the critical position for this variation. And now 12. Bg5! f6 13. Be3 g6 14. g4!? Ng7 15. Ng1 Qh4+ 16. Kg2 f5 17. exf5 gxf5 18. h3 Nd7 19. Qd2 Qe7 20. Bg5 Nf6 leads to better chances for white (although, in this sharp variation OTB the result can vary). For example: 21. Rf1 Rf7 22. Ne2 e4 23. Bc2 exf3+ 24. Rxf3 fxg4 25. hxg4 Bxg4 26. Re3 Qd7 27. Bxf6 Rxf6 28. Bxh7+ Kf8 29. Ng3 Re8 30. Ne4 Rxe4 31. Bxe4 Nh5 32. Rg3!
I don't think this analysis of mine is perfect. It was made some years ago when my corr. "helpers" (the chess engines) were not like Rybka and Houdini.. But the fact is that white has more space and they can bring all the pieces they need on the king's side..  Wink

  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #57 - 08/18/11 at 10:08:35
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/18/11 at 08:08:01:
3.How does 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 c5 5.a3 (not mentioned by Yakovich) compare to 5.d5?

The best game for both sides in this variation seems to be 
Diez Del Corral, Jesus (2415) - Olafsson, Helgi (2270), Malta, 1980 1/2 which followed:

All I can say for this game is that its quality is like Rybka played vs Houdini, except 17. Nh3!? which is not crucial.
So imho white has to abandon this 5. a3?!. And probably Yakovich knew it.  Wink
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #56 - 08/18/11 at 08:08:01
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Can you guys help me please -what is the current theoretical verdict on 4.f3? Do Yakovich' analyses still stand up? In particular I have the following questions: 
1.What is the current verdict on 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 c5 5.d5 b5!?
2.What is the current verdict on 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 c5 5.d5 d6 6.e4 Bc3:+ 7.bc3: e5?
3.How does 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 c5 5.a3 (not mentioned by Yakovich) compare to 5.d5?
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #55 - 04/17/11 at 11:16:13
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macaking wrote on 04/15/11 at 19:03:15:
recently i started to play the 4.f3 variation. can somebody guide me in this position.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. f3 d5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 O-O 7. cxd5 exd5 8. e3 Nh5
the mainline seems to be 9. Qc2 Re8 10.g4 Nf4 11. Kf2 Ne6.
but moskalenko played 9. g3.

thx for help


I dont have this book myself but there is a book called
"Play the 4 F3 Nimzo-Indian" by Yuri Yakovich where the line should by covered.
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #54 - 04/15/11 at 19:03:15
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recently i started to play the 4.f3 variation. can somebody guide me in this position.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. f3 d5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 O-O 7. cxd5 exd5 8. e3 Nh5
the mainline seems to be 9. Qc2 Re8 10.g4 Nf4 11. Kf2 Ne6.
but moskalenko played 9. g3.

thx for help
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #53 - 04/03/11 at 15:22:15
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bragesjo wrote on 03/28/11 at 06:45:59:
I read about the term Open Samisch and Closed Samisch. According to Keene, the open Samisch is a3 variation when black plays d5 and captures with the knight (and this usually transposes to f3 variation) (EDIT or was it c5 first with d5 as followup?)  and the closed Samisch is when black playes c5 instead (EDIT and does not followed up by d5).


1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4.
a3 (4. f3 d5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 c5 7. cxd5 Nxd5 {transposes}) 4... Bxc3+ 5.
bxc3 c5 6. f3 (6. e3 {etc was called closed Saemish}) 6... d5 7. cxd5 Nxd5 {
was called open Saemish} *
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #52 - 03/28/11 at 11:25:19
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Does Moskalenko cover all of the variations in his Revolutionize your chess book?
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #51 - 03/28/11 at 06:45:59
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I read about the term Open Samisch and Closed Samisch. According to Keene, the open Samisch is a3 variation when black plays d5 and captures with the knight (and this usually transposes to f3 variation) (EDIT or was it c5 first with d5 as followup?)  and the closed Samisch is when black playes c5 instead (EDIT and does not followed up by d5).
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #50 - 03/27/11 at 15:23:47
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Moskalenko in his "Revolutionize" book calls it the Kmoch variation, while admitting he doesn't know how it got that name.

In my database there are games by Kmoch that could conceivably have been reached with 4.f3, but in fact 4.a3 was the move order in all of them.
« Last Edit: 03/27/11 at 16:27:05 by Stigma »  

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