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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Yusupov's Colle (Read 46859 times)
Antillian
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #17 - 07/31/09 at 14:06:50
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I got a question for you Colle players. I am a Queen's gambit player who would like to play the Colle as an occasional surprise weapon against weaker players. If I had to buy one book, what would you suggest?
  

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TicklyTim
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #16 - 07/31/09 at 13:17:26
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/30/09 at 15:41:10:
Against ...c5/...b6 white can switch off to a Colle-Koltanowski, and black actually has significant problems to solve after the critical 8. e4!

Black's best bet (after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. e3) is the d5/c5/Nc6, etc. set-up. Even if the white player enjoys the positions he gets they're still equal with best play.


After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 b6 I expected white to play 4.c4 to transpose into some minor QID line.
What is your critical 8.e4 after?
  
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #15 - 07/31/09 at 02:31:23
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I'm beginning to think that the CZ or Colle is an opening that can best be used inside another opening, when it is used effectively. I don't think the authors of these openings want to promulgate this because it is not in their "economic" interest to do so. When starting out, you want the skinny and not the "By the way..." version.

Here is an example, of which there are several:

Who invites whom to the Colle Party?

1.Nf3 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 e6 This is a transpositional structure with a Black invitation.  4.e3 Now you have a Colle or Colle Zukertorte. 4...Bd6 [4...Nbd7 5.d4 is a Colle Opening with ...Nbd7.] 5.d4 is a Colle Zukertorte Opening.

So you see, it's not as simple as it might first appear to be.

If you try to [i]crash the party with a Colle[/i] you may be disappointed. You have to wait for a proper invitation! That's my 2 cents on this one!
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #14 - 07/30/09 at 15:41:10
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TicklyTim wrote on 07/29/09 at 14:17:34:
Maybe it won't catch on at top level, as it's difficult to reach.
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 and black perhaps has better options than 3..e6.
And with 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 black can remain flexible with TLunn1 type moves (..c5, ..b6) which isn't a very critical line for black to face.
Elite players are going to be happy to face these lesser options.

If playing at a lower level, or a strong GM vs lesser opponent, then these options might be viable.

Club players seem to play what white wants to see, so it will probably remain very popular at that level.


Against ...c5/...b6 white can switch off to a Colle-Koltanowski, and black actually has significant problems to solve after the critical 8. e4!

Black's best bet (after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. e3) is the d5/c5/Nc6, etc. set-up. Even if the white player enjoys the positions he gets they're still equal with best play.
  

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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #13 - 07/30/09 at 04:23:20
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TicklyTim wrote on 07/29/09 at 14:17:34:
Maybe it won't catch on at top level, as it's difficult to reach.
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 and black perhaps has better options than 3..e6.
And with 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 black can remain flexible with TLunn2 type moves (..c5, ..b6) which isn't a very critical line for black to face.
Elite players are going to be happy to face these lesser options.

If playing at a lower level, or a strong GM vs lesser opponent, then these options might be viable.

Club players seem to play what white wants to see, so it will probably remain very popular at that level.


I agree, although Yusupov has played it regularly at the 2600 level it's not likely to catch on because it's not a serious try for an opening advantage. None of the d-pawn specials are, including the London. But compared to other d-pawn specials, it's a powerhouse opening. Much better than the London which gets so much indepth coverage.
  
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #12 - 07/29/09 at 14:34:26
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Regarding an earlier question of move order, here is what I play.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 trying for a Colle-Z
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bg5 using the Torre against the KID
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Black's d7-d5 leaves the e5-square weak and justifies White's trying for a Colle-Z where he might get Nf3-e5 in.
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 g6! Take your pick. c2-c4 can lead to a harmless Grunfeld, but Rudel's idea of 4.c4 Bg7 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.e4 is intersting. Though I'm not sure how good it actually is.
  
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TicklyTim
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #11 - 07/29/09 at 14:17:34
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Maybe it won't catch on at top level, as it's difficult to reach.
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 and black perhaps has better options than 3..e6.
And with 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 black can remain flexible with QID type moves (..c5, ..b6) which isn't a very critical line for black to face.
Elite players are going to be happy to face these lesser options.

If playing at a lower level, or a strong GM vs lesser opponent, then these options might be viable.

Club players seem to play what white wants to see, so it will probably remain very popular at that level.
  
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dmp4373
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #10 - 07/29/09 at 14:08:45
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[quote author=nmga link=1241400065/0#8 date=1248771026]Very interesting thread. I'm curious why Yusupov's c2--c4 Colle isn't seen more (after ...d5/...e6), seeing that quite e few modern sources think highly of it.

Standard C-Z is also very interesting, but I'd like to ask what any of you who play it may have against the equalising line of Cabrilo--Kovacevic (8 ... Qe7 9 Ne5 cd 10 ed Qc7). Or do you deviate earlier?[/quote]

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 d5 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Nc6 6.0-0 Bd6 7.Bb2 0-0 8.Nbd2 Qe7

Both Susan Polgar's and Aaron Sumerscale's DVDs don't deal with Black's threat of ... Qc7. Nigel Davies' DVD does. He says that after Black plays his Q to e7 White should consider playing c2-c4, heading for a hanging pawn position. The reason being Black's Q is not putting pressure on White's weak hanging pawns and will have to relocate, thus losing time.

Also Davies says that if Black plays ... Nbd7 instead of ... Nc6, again White should seriously consider c2-c4 for a similar reason as with the Q on e7. The N on d7 doesn't put pressure on White's hanging pawns and is mis-placed.

This seems to be the way Yusupov plays this opening. Knowing the pawn structures and remaining flexible. If Black gives him the Colle-Z bind with a N on e5 supported by pawns on d4 and f4, great. If Black tries to stop this by playing his Q to e7, then he switches to c2-c4.

One more thing, David Rudel has a very good article on the ... Qe7-c7 manuever at Chessvile. It's something like 10 pages long and it's free. He explains White's problem well.

Here's what GM Davies says about the Colle-Zukertort on his DVD.
"A very respectable opening, and yet it hasn't caught the attention of many of the world's elite." ... "I think it's a really excellent opening."
  
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dmp4373
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #9 - 07/29/09 at 02:06:30
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HoemberChess wrote on 07/28/09 at 08:20:29:
I play it only vs. 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6. (Nimzo, Bogo, Modern Benoni are ruled out)

What's the title of the book?


dmp4373 wrote on 05/08/09 at 02:30:43:
THE COLLE SYSTEM DVD by Nigel Davies is a good source for the discussion of an early c2-c4. Many times he points out how a Black set-up that works well against the standard Colle-Z is mis-aligned against the hanging pawns structure that results from White's c2-c4.

I used to hate the idea of c2-c4 because it meant I couldn't try for a Colle-Z type bind with the N on e5 supported by pawns on d4 and f4. Then I bought a book on hanging pawns, learned their strengths and weaknesses and now play c2-c4 with confidence.

I honestly believe the Colle Zuckertort/Yusupov is the best amateur opening out there. It's easy to learn and has the soundness and power of a main line GM opening.



The book is: HANGING PAWNS by GM Adrian Mikhalchishin and Wit Braslawski

The introduction is an explanation of hanging pawns theory. After that comes 180 analyzed positions.
  
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #8 - 07/28/09 at 08:50:26
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Very interesting thread. I'm curious why Yusupov's c2--c4 Colle isn't seen more (after ...d5/...e6), seeing that quite e few modern sources think highly of it.

Standard C-Z is also very interesting, but I'd like to ask what any of you who play it may have against the equalising line of Cabrilo--Kovacevic (8 ... Qe7 9 Ne5 cd 10 ed Qc7). Or do you deviate earlier?
  
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #7 - 07/28/09 at 08:20:29
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I play it only vs. 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6. (Nimzo, Bogo, Modern Benoni are ruled out)

What's the title of the book?


dmp4373 wrote on 05/08/09 at 02:30:43:
THE COLLE SYSTEM DVD by Nigel Davies is a good source for the discussion of an early c2-c4. Many times he points out how a Black set-up that works well against the standard Colle-Z is mis-aligned against the hanging pawns structure that results from White's c2-c4.

I used to hate the idea of c2-c4 because it meant I couldn't try for a Colle-Z type bind with the N on e5 supported by pawns on d4 and f4. Then I bought a book on hanging pawns, learned their strengths and weaknesses and now play c2-c4 with confidence.

I honestly believe the Colle Zuckertort/Yusupov is the best amateur opening out there. It's easy to learn and has the soundness and power of a main line GM opening.

  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #6 - 07/28/09 at 03:02:50
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Sylvester wrote on 07/18/09 at 14:38:21:
Hello dmp4373,

I would like to know how you fit the Colle Zukertorte into your repertoire. My guess is that it is not your main opening weapon but will be used against the Wink6 and ...?

Assuming I'm right, how would you finish this sentence? Thanks for taking the time.



I play the C-Z only after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6.


  
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #5 - 07/24/09 at 03:57:01
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Sylvester wrote on 07/18/09 at 14:38:21:
Hello dmp4373,

I would like to know how you fit the Colle Zukertorte into your repertoire. My guess is that it is not your main opening weapon but will be used against the Wink7 and ...?

Assuming I'm right, how would you finish this sentence? Thanks for taking the time.


As with so many of the d-pawn special openings, the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 is where they can be played most effectively.

However, I have found that in practical play, the Torre is also effective against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6. It works well at the amateur level because King's Indian players don't have a pre-planned attack against White's triangular pawn structure. Theory says the Torre allows easy equality and that's true, Black is equal by move ten, but has no idea of how to proceed against the c3-d4-e3 structure and begins to drift. After playing a number of second and third best moves Black finds himself at a slight disadvantage by moves 15-20. At least this has been my experience in OTB tournament games below the master level.
  
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #4 - 07/18/09 at 14:38:21
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Hello dmp4373,

I would like to know how you fit the Colle Zukertorte into your repertoire. My guess is that it is not your main opening weapon but will be used against the QID and ...?

Assuming I'm right, how would you finish this sentence? Thanks for taking the time.
  
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dmp4373
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Re: Yusupov's Colle
Reply #3 - 05/09/09 at 16:59:43
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I'm a 2150 player with a lot of material on the Colle-Z and I found Davies Fritz Opening Trainer on the Colle quite helpful. Like Polgar's DVD on the Colle-Z, Davies goes over a bunch of games that show the ideas. The difference between the two DVDs is that Davies much more frequently explains why an early c2-c4 by White is best against Black's strongest replies.

It's hard to put a finger on the level because its focus is on the 'ideas' which is useful information at all levels.
  
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