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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) A Dutch Bird? (Read 16200 times)
Johannes Brahms
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #23 - 09/13/09 at 19:08:37
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Thanks TN! (By the way, I meant "Leningrad Bird", not "Leningrad Dutch" above, a typo).

Yes, I refer to the line 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 Lg4. I find it irritating. Maybe I should look into your move-ordering with d3 first, prior to g3 (if at all).

You mentioned that ...e6 or ...g6 is better than Lxf3; this is my feeling too. The Lxf3-line (via 3...Lg4) is covered in the Taylor book, I believe (but I don't have access to it right now), whereas the other more challanging choices (?) are absent. Irrespective of the theoretical status of 2...Lg4, I feel satisfied with Taylor's suggestion (3.e3).

Am I the only one somewhat worried with the other lines mentioned above? (3...Lg4 plus ...e6 or ...g6)

 
  
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TN
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #22 - 09/13/09 at 11:42:02
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Johannes Brahms wrote on 09/13/09 at 10:23:48:
I am another amateur who have started to experiment with this quite interesting opening (in particular, the "Polar Bear"). I started out as a d4-played, then found the English to better suit my style, then got somewhat fed up with the Queen's gambit/Slav-type of lines (i.e., subjectively, I just don't like the play here compared to most other lines).

So I discovered Leninggrad Dutch, and the (overall) excellent Taylor's book. Here is one question to other Bird players; Taylor covers the "Recipe" quite well, and suggests the "pawn storm approach" after 2... Lg4. However, I have noticed that rather many opponents postpones  the bishop move to the 3rd move. Any good suggestions on how to handle this "delayed recipe"? Danielsen mentions something like "d3" will give white a good game" in one his video lectures. But I would like to see some discussion on what to do in this system as white?

Thanks in advance

ps. Interesting to see that in the English forum, everybody seems to wait for M.Marin to clarify exactly what to play in the c6/d5- or e6/d5-lines. The very reason why I started to flirt with Bird instead ... keeping lots of pieces on the board, in a closed nature ...



If I recall correctly, 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 (I assume this is what you are referring to) 3.g3 (3.d3 Bg4 4.Nbd2 is another antidote to these ...Bg4 lines when White can play a reversed Antoshin) 3...Bg4 4.Bg2 Nbd7 5.0-0 Bf3 (5...e6 or 5...g6 is probably better) 6.Rf3! White is slightly better. The immediate 2...Bg4 is more challenging and last time I checked Black was equalising quite comfortably there. In that case 3.e3 Nd7 4.h3 Bf3 5.Qf3 would be my recommendation even though the positions are quite different in nature to the Polar Bear.

An early ...c6 and ...Qb6 before White castles kingside can also be quite irritating for White.
  

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Johannes Brahms
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #21 - 09/13/09 at 10:23:48
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I am another amateur who have started to experiment with this quite interesting opening (in particular, the "Polar Bear"). I started out as a d4-played, then found the English to better suit my style, then got somewhat fed up with the Queen's gambit/Slav-type of lines (i.e., subjectively, I just don't like the play here compared to most other lines).

So I discovered Leninggrad Dutch, and the (overall) excellent Taylor's book. Here is one question to other Bird players; Taylor covers the "Recipe" quite well, and suggests the "pawn storm approach" after 2... Lg4. However, I have noticed that rather many opponents postpones  the bishop move to the 3rd move. Any good suggestions on how to handle this "delayed recipe"? Danielsen mentions something like "d3 will give white a good game" in one his video lectures. But I would like to see some discussion on what to do in this system as white?

Thanks in advance

ps. Interesting to see that in the English forum, everybody seems to wait for M.Marin to clarify exactly what to play in the c6/d5- or e6/d5-lines. The very reason why I started to flirt with Bird instead ... keeping lots of pieces on the board, in a closed nature ...







« Last Edit: 09/13/09 at 19:36:55 by Johannes Brahms »  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #20 - 08/20/09 at 13:04:41
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HM. 'Mirrored' openings. Compare the Ruy Lopez with the Veresov.
The latter may be playable, but there is no discussion that the former is eminently playable.
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #19 - 08/19/09 at 14:26:37
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halfacreek wrote on 06/29/09 at 21:15:16:
Thanks everyone for your comments and help. After playing the Dutch as black what would be a complementary defense against e4? For those that play the Dutch, what do you play against e4?




Before I start I will warn you I will catch criticism for my reply but I am ready for that. Bring on the ones who frown on strange openings!

While I was reading some articles on chess cafe I stumbled across Balogh's Defense. It starts off as 1.e4 d6 2.d4 f5!?

Bucker's opening remarks are about symmetry and if Sveshnikovs Sicilian is viable why not a reverse? Your will have to check out the article! Its strange to look at but quite fun to learn about. I also doubt your opponents will be prepared for such a line!

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss13.pdf
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #18 - 08/13/09 at 02:28:20
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belaji wrote on 08/12/09 at 05:26:15:
MNb,

Do you have any experience with f5 & e5 (instead of e6) based upon move order?

Thanks,

Bela


A little. Once I managed to play ...d6; ...f5; and ...e5 against the KIA with great success. Also I met once the setup c4, d3, e4, Nge2 with these moves (I played the bishop to e7) when I finished development
and subsequently failed to find a plan. Finally I have tried 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 f5 once but got creamed after 4.d4.
As I have told you before the next time I will follow Simon Williams' recommendations.
  

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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #17 - 08/12/09 at 08:06:31
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nyoke wrote on 08/11/09 at 07:39:06:
Don't most Dutchies play the French in order to be able to cope with transpositions ?


No, most dutchies play 1...f5! - it's the frenchies who play 1...e6 against everything...
  
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belaji
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #16 - 08/12/09 at 05:26:15
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MNb,

Do you have any experience with f5 & e5 (instead of e6) based upon move order?

Thanks,

Bela
  
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MNb
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #15 - 08/11/09 at 09:59:33
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nyoke wrote on 08/11/09 at 07:39:06:
Don't most Dutchies play the French in order to be able to cope with transpositions ?


I do. Others prefer the Pirc though, especially when it's the Leningrad they want.
  

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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #14 - 08/11/09 at 07:39:06
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Quote:
After playing the Dutch as black what would be a complementary defense against e4? For those that play the Dutch, what do you play against e4?


Don't most Dutchies play the French in order to be able to cope with transpositions ?
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #13 - 07/06/09 at 18:26:57
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Have a look at the English Defense with Ilia Odessky's book and/or play 1...b6 with Christian Bauer. Then you can try working the long white diagonal from the Black side!  Smiley
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #12 - 06/30/09 at 22:37:47
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I play a little bit here and there. I used to play the Najdorf Sicilian and the french. You could perhaps find some of my old posts on these as Basqueknight or the basque knight. I had changed my email and forgotten my password. Hence the new name on this forum. I also like the Modern Tigers version and the Owens.

I love a lot of openings but I prefer the black side of the board. I recently started studying the Blackburne gambit in the philidor. Its quite fun to play but even more fun to study the history.

My first encounter with this opening was in an article on Chess Cafe from the Gambit Cartel. Written by a man I have had the pleasure of meeting Tim McGrew.
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #11 - 06/29/09 at 21:15:16
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Thanks everyone for your comments and help. After playing the Dutch as black what would be a complementary defense against e4? For those that play the Dutch, what do you play against e4?

  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #10 - 06/29/09 at 18:41:10
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halfacreek wrote on 05/18/09 at 13:19:54:
I've been toying with the Bird's opening as white and the Dutch as black. However, before I delve too deeply and spend too much time on them I wanted to know what the current opinions and status of these openings were and if these were viable options at the amateur level? Are there problem variations that one needs to especially prepare for?

Thanks


I actually am an amateur who plays the bird on a regular basis. Its my main opening with the white pieces! A lot of "anti-dutch" lines are actually quite useless against the bird! That being down one tempo is what can cause huge problems for the second player.

The two set ups for black you should take a look at most are the froms gambit most likely the lasker variation. It is the most common of the two froms in amateur play! Another is what IM Tim Taylor calls the recipe where black plays an early Bg4. On a trip back home on the other side of Michigan I had the chance to play some old friends of mine who are also at the same level. They relied more on an early Bg4 than anything else. It did not yield bad positions for me just not the typical bird formation. One of my favorite games in the early Bg4 lines is Danielsen-Luther or Nimzowitsch-Kmoch. Both have similar themes.

Overall though I think that the bird is a great place to start with for making a serious opening repertoire. It will always be frowned upon or doubted by your friends and colleagues. This is actually a great reason to play. Most people look at it with disgust when you open 1.f4! and most of them dont have a single idea of the history and soundness of this opening. Indeed in a lot of times your opponents if they are queens pawn players will play a reverse of their favorite systems against the dutch. I will tell you now that they will have a rude awakening when you come crashing through.

The bird has been a great tool in teaching me the art of attack. When I started playing chess all those years ago I would start an attack. I would proceed to get a superior position and then continue by throwing away my advantage. Every night I would go home and fritz would scorn me with how I should have continued. So after I picked up the bird and went over numerous games that started to change.

The bird is an interesting choice for white. It has brought me much joy with each win and even with each loss. I have always learned from them.

As for the dutch. I dabbled in it for awhile after playing the Kings Indian for years. Its not that I didnt like it. I did. I just feel chained to the Kings Indian and its complications and beautiful History on a completely different note I have started to incorporate 1...b6 into my repertoire. Right now against the Kings pawn but I am sure that my love for these strange positions will cross over and maybe even take over my Kings Indian love affair!

I wish you the best of luck in this opening.

John-Marc Ormechea

the Basque Knight
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #9 - 06/26/09 at 10:10:50
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1.f4 e5 2.dxe5 d6 3.Nf3 dxe5 4.e4 Bc5 and now 5.Nc3 or 5.c3. MNb already provided links and instructions, but here are the direct links:
http://hem.passagen.se/tjmisha/rushandpush.html
http://hem.passagen.se/tjmisha/tartakowers5c3.htmll
http://www.chessville.com/UCO/TRNT/FromsGambitDeclinedPart1.html
http://www.chessville.com/UCO/TRNT/FromsGambitDeclinedPart2.html
http://www.chessville.com/UCO/TRNT/FromsGambitDeclinedPart3.html

Dangerous Weapons Flank Openings has an excellent chapter on the From Accepted with 5.Nc3 (as well as a very good chapter on the Polar Bear).
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #8 - 06/26/09 at 09:07:04
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I was trying to advise a Bird's player on a safe simple line to play against From's Gambit. After researching a little I decided that there wasn't one. Maybe the transposition into the King's Gambit is the 'safe' line - which sounds a bizzare statement.
Can white steer things into calm waters after 1...e5?
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #7 - 06/26/09 at 08:49:23
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"A Dutch Bird?"
If you have to ask, you're in the wrong part of Amsterdam...
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #6 - 06/26/09 at 04:46:12
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Really? The Hobbs, 1...g5, and Hobbs-Zilbermints Gambits, 1 f4 h6 2 Nf3 g5 3 fxg5, although rarely seen, can challenge the Bird. I know that these gambits can surprise people!
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #5 - 06/22/09 at 09:08:53
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You may like to look at the Kindermann book on The Dutch Leningrad if you havent already. That plus danielsen's Polar Bear stuff will sort you.
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #4 - 05/29/09 at 15:09:23
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Another good theme behind playing these setups is that you have a defense and an offense in one bag.  Playing 1. f4 allows you to play into a position that you are familiar with, and then against almost anything (not 1. e4 or 1. g4) you have the Dutch Defense.  It is playable against anything else that White will throw at you, and if he does not push d4 early, he stands a chance of Black gaining easy equality, as his fight to control e5 is good.

Another setup that the Bird-Dutch opponent will play, that is a bit annoying, is the Bf4/Bf5 setup, wanting to clamp down on e4 or e5 and make it harder for the Bird/Dutch player to get into gear.  But there are various methods for you to achieve good play against solid setups such as that. 

I remember when I bought Taylor's Bird's Opening book - it was good, but I began to learn that there is a lot more to the Bird than he gives.  It is impossible to provide everything there is for an entire system in the book that he gave.  He only covers a handful of ideas (although they are sufficient to give you a taste of things). 

I used his book to begin to learn the positions in the opening, and then I have never owned a real Dutch book (only one with miniatures, and most were White wins).  I have faired well enough with 1. d4 f5 that I could play that against any of my opponents and always have an interesting game. 

As far as 1. e4 goes, you will need to find something else - but there are plenty of choices. You may consider what you like to have in a position before you lock in a defensive choice...
  
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #3 - 05/19/09 at 21:38:52
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One way Black can take benefit from being a tempo down is holding the d-pawn back: 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 (g6) 3.e4 e6 4.d3 g6 5.Be2 Bg7 6.0-0 Nge7 Flude-MNb, em CL ICCF 2007. White needed to play precisely to hold the draw.
In case you don't agree you should consult

http://www.geocities.com/drawyah/

In general I think the Leningrad Bird (with g3 and Bg2) gives White the most opportunities to grab the initiative. In that case White can play 5.g3 in the game above or even 3.g3, eventually entering the Closed Sicilian (with Nc3) or the Big Clamp (without Nc3). If this is your choice I would advise to study the Leningrad proper first. Then you will understand better how to make best use of the extra tempo as White. But you should also prepare lines like 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Bg4 or 2...Nc6 and 3...Bg4.

The most ambitious way to counter the From is accepting it. That is not everybody's cup of tea. So you might look at

http://www.chessville.com/UCO/TRNT/TheRoadNotTaken.htm

http://hem.passagen.se/tjmisha/
click Chess!
click King's Gambit Stuff
click The old Articles
click Just a Rush and a Push

for a sound, slightly unambitious offbeat reaction.

The macho-approach is 2.e4.
  

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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #2 - 05/18/09 at 14:28:04
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As BPaulsen says, the Bird is sound but do not await to get a clear edge of the opening unless your opponent chooses really weak moves.
Just as in the Dutch, you have the choice to go for a classical setup, a sort of leningrad, an Antoshin, a Q-side fianchetto and should be prepared against Bg4 (the recipe) and the From gambit.
To play the Bird at a good level you should also have some knowledge of the typical dutch themes (pushing the f-pawn, when to go for e4) and know when it is an advantage to be a tempo ahead of the dutch and when not.
The Dutch is a defense and it is easier to play than the Bird in the sense that you already know what your openent has plaid. The tempo difference is so a very important concept in the Bird.
And another thing: as already said, you will rarely get a significant edge of the opening what means that you must be able to be patient during the game.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: A Dutch Bird?
Reply #1 - 05/18/09 at 14:16:04
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halfacreek wrote on 05/18/09 at 13:19:54:
I've been toying with the Bird's opening as white and the Dutch as black. However, before I delve too deeply and spend too much time on them I wanted to know what the current opinions and status of these openings were and if these were viable options at the amateur level? Are there problem variations that one needs to especially prepare for?

Thanks


The Bird's Opening is 100% sound. Don't expect any sort of edge out of the opening by virtue of the move itself, but given that you'll be in familiar positions that your opponent doesn't see often, it's not a bad opening to have in your repetoire. There's ample opportunity to outplay an unwary opponent, and there are plenty of people completely unprepared for it.

Be prepared in the From's Gambit, especially. There's nothing else exotic that black can throw at you that will jeopardize your position. There's a lot of club players that will throw out 1...e5 without knowing hardly any theory at all. If you know the theory, you will beat them handily.

The Dutch Defense is perfectly sound as well, but you will need to be prepared in all of the Anti-Dutch Systems, because very rarely will you get a main line Dutch at the club level. The Anti-Dutch Systems don't really promise white anything, but black needs to be prepared for them. The Staunton Gambit comes to mind as something you will see quite a bit, in addition to 2. Bg5, 2. Nc3 with 3. Bg5, and various g4 spikes.

Both are just fine on the amateur level. If you work diligently, you will have a pair of openings you can play for a very long time, that always fly under the radar.
  

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A Dutch Bird?
05/18/09 at 13:19:54
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I've been toying with the Bird's opening as white and the Dutch as black. However, before I delve too deeply and spend too much time on them I wanted to know what the current opinions and status of these openings were and if these were viable options at the amateur level? Are there problem variations that one needs to especially prepare for?

Thanks
  
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