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Normal Topic good B-bad B (a sample game of mine) (Read 4999 times)
HoemberChess
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Re: good B-bad B (a sample game of mine)
Reply #8 - 06/01/09 at 11:32:22
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Thanks for the answer. I am playing blitz games against Rybka from the critical positions. I'll be back soon with further conclusions.

Girkassa wrote on 05/29/09 at 11:29:50:
...

  

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Re: good B-bad B (a sample game of mine)
Reply #7 - 05/29/09 at 11:29:50
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I haven't studied your analysis in detail, but overall, my first impression is that you played very well. A bishop endgame with your pawn on e4 instead of d5 looks like a dream outcome, and you use the normal technique for winning Bishop endings against an isolated pawn, namely zugzwang.

The only place where my first impression was that I would have played differently, was on the 32nd move. You mention the line 32...Ke6 33.fxe4 fxe4 34.Kd2 Kd5 35.Kc3. I believe this still looks winning for Black after 35...Bf6, relying on zugzwang again. If White is forced to play 36.Bg1, Black has 36...Bg5 (zugzwang again) 37.Bh2 (37.Bf2 e3 38.Bg1 Ke4) 37...Be3 38.Be5 Bg1 39. Bg7 e3 40.Kd3 e2 41.Kxe2 Bxd4 winning. Even if White had inserted b4 somewhere, this final position must be winning. If White tries to advance his kingside pawns to restrict your bishop, that would leave the way open for your king to intervene.

At first sight, I preferred the line above to 32...exf3+, as White could have played 33.gxf3. My first thought was that if your only plan there is to create a passed pawn on the g file, White can shuffle his bishop between e3-f2-g1 and both protect d4 and stop your pawn. However, it looks like you can use zugzwang there as well. A position like Be3 v Bf6 with your pawn on g3 would put White in zugzwang. Then Bg1 v Bg5 and it's zugzwang again.

So, while I haven't studied this thoroughly and I haven't used a computer for analysis, for the moment the pure bishop ending looks winning to me.

Moving back to the diagrammed position, if you had anything better than what you did, I'm not seeing it. However, it would surprise me if that position is already objectively winning for Black. As White, I would have rushed the rook from g4 to the queenside, cover the important squares on the e file with a pawn on f3, a king on f1 and a bishop on f2, and only then offer the exchange of rooks (not necessarily both pairs, but if you get a pure bishop endgame with your pawn on d5 instead of e4, it looks hard to break through). Thus, 22...Rfe8 23.Rg3 Bf8 24.Rb3! (annoying!) 24...Re4 25.Be3 Re7 (what else?) 26.f3 Rae8 27.Re1 g6 28.Kf1 Bh6 29.Bf2 and White was in time to consolidate. You could try to improve on this with 22...Rae8 23.Rg3 Bd8 24.Rb3 Rf7 25.Be3 Rfe7, but after 25.Kf1, I don't see how you can interrupt White's plan, e.g. 25...f5 26.Re1 f4 27.Bd2 followed by f3, and White doesn't appear to be in trouble.

If you are to try something else, 22...b6, as you mention, could be it. You should be better after that move as well, but I find it hard to believe it's winning.
  
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HoemberChess
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This is the PGN file. How could it be harmful?
Reply #6 - 05/29/09 at 00:45:12
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[Event "Online Chess"]
[Date "2009.04.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "opponent"]
[Black "Hoember"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B01"]
[Annotator "HóeMBeR"]
[PlyCount "80"]
[EventDate "2009.??.??"]
[TimeControl "1"]

{Center Counter Defense. I made mistakes in the opening, BUT please let us
deal only with the endgame part, from move 22 on.   I have not given any part
of the game to any computer engine or any third party--I made every moves on
my own.  The variations don't reflect revised analyzes, except maybe where an
evaluation (+-, -+, += etc) is given at the end. They are just "rough drafts",
my first impressions.} 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c6 6.
Bd3 Bg4 7. h3 Bh5 8. O-O e6 9. Bd2 Nbd7 10. a3 Qc7 11. Ne4 Nxe4 12. Bxe4 Nf6
13. Re1 Nxe4 {maybe too early} 14. Rxe4 Bd6 15. c4 O-O 16. c5 Be7 17. Bf4 Bxf3
18. Qxf3 Qd8 19. Be5 Qd5 20. Rg4 f6 21. Qxd5 exd5 22. Bf4 {Please consider
only the endgame part, starting from this move. I, as Black, was very
satisfied with this position (bad white bishop, very poor location of the
white rooks), I already felt that it was probably winning, but I am not sure I
was using the best moves.} Rfe8 (22... Rae8) (22... a5) (22... b6) 23. Re1 (23.
Kf1 f5 (23... b6) 24. Rg3 Bf6) 23... Bf8 24. Rxe8 Rxe8 25. Be3 {What should
Black play for here? Maybe opening a line on the Q-side, since the g4R is
misplaced?} f5 26. Rf4 g6 27. Kf1 Bh6 {
for I didn't want to let the king reach the e-file.} 28. Rf3 Bg7 29. Rf4 {
I gained a tempo, Bg7.} Re4 {So, I eventually offered to swap off his
not-so-good rook. "Taking on e4 is compulsory, so I will have the d5 square
for my king", I said to myself.} 30. Rxe4 dxe4 {I was not 100% sure about this
move, either, but I felt that d5 would be a good attacking square for my king.}
31. Ke2 Kf7 32. f3 exf3+ {I am not sure if I had to take, but I felt that a
possible isolated black pawn on e4 maybe wouldn't go anywhere.} (32... Ke6 33.
fxe4 fxe4 34. Kd2 Kd5 35. Kc3 {and now what to play for as Black?}) 33. Kxf3 (
33. gxf3 {and what is Black's best play? Still winning for him?}) 33... Ke6 34.
Ke2 Kd5 35. Kd3 a5 {I don't know if it was necessary, but I felt that my
a-pawn will either get to a4 (after b2-b4), where it is safe and blocks a
target on a3, or remain on a5, but then White's c5P is weaker.} (35... f4 36.
Bxf4 Bxd4 37. b4 Bb2 38. a4 a5) (35... Bf6) 36. b4 (36. g3 a4) 36... a4 {
I was also considering 36..f4 and taking on d4, but I decided not to use
tactics, for I have a lot of other assets.} (36... f4 37. Bxf4 Bxd4) 37. g3 (
37. g4 fxg4 38. hxg4 h5) 37... Bf6 38. g4 (38. Bf2 Bg5 39. Be3 (39. Kc2 Kc4 $19
) 39... Bxe3 40. Kxe3 Kc4) (38. h4 Bg7 39. Bf2 Bh6 $19) 38... fxg4 39. hxg4 h5
40. gxh5 (40. g5 Bh8 41. Bf2 Bg7 42. Kc3 (42. Be3 h4 43. Bf2 (43. Bg1 h3) 43...
h3 44. Bg1 Bxd4 45. Bh2 Bb2 $19) 42... h4 (42... Ke4 43. Kc4 Kf4 44. d5 cxd5+
45. Kxd5 Kxg5 (45... Bb2 46. b5 Bxa3 47. c6 bxc6+ 48. bxc6) 46. b5 h4 47. c6 (
47. Bxh4+ Kxh4 48. c6 bxc6+ 49. bxc6)) 43. Bxh4 Bxd4+ 44. Kc2 Be3 $19) 40...
gxh5 {
and this is where we are now, but it is completely winning beyond question.} *
« Last Edit: 05/29/09 at 11:21:51 by HoemberChess »  

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Markovich
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Re: virus in PGN?????
Reply #5 - 05/29/09 at 00:38:30
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HoemberChess wrote on 05/28/09 at 23:23:26:
I am going to bed. Only a quick remark.
I have never heard of viruses in PGN files. PGNs are plain textfiles, so it is impossible to transmit any harmful through them.


I think that it depends on the software that reads the pgn file.  If there is a pgn reader with weak security in its processing of text input, it's conceivable that a "pgn" file with malicious code embedded in it, most probably as a comment, could do something bad.  But it would take pretty intimate knowledge of some particular pgn reader, plus a notable security deficiency in the reader itself, to launch an attack by this means.

Someone could try, for example, to generate a buffer overflow by inserting a huge comment.  I'm by no means expert in this area, but that's the sort of thing that is done.

  

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HoemberChess
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virus in PGN?????
Reply #4 - 05/28/09 at 23:23:26
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I am going to bed. Only a quick remark.
I have never heard of viruses in PGN files. PGNs are plain textfiles, so it is impossible to transmit any harmful through them. And I don't know any better way of sharing games. 
Attaching is a wonderful possibility here. But few use it.
Good (k)Night, tomorrow I'll return.
  

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Re: good B-bad B (a sample game of mine)
Reply #3 - 05/28/09 at 22:36:20
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/28/09 at 18:22:59:
Of course, since this was a correspondence game, both players had to be extremely precise.  

My comments are based on about 3 minutes of looking at the board without reference to attachments.  (I don't like to open attachments because I fear viruses.)

Since it's Black to move, my first candidate is 1...f5.  I would not fear either 2.Be5 or .Rg3



2.Be5 Bf6 and I don't see how Black loses the double-rook endgame by force.  (White does have the advantage due to the weak b-pawn and the open e-file, but I don't think it's enough.)

2.Rg3 Bf6 is even more difficult for white.  Black will be able to defend the 7th rank with Rf7, and I don't see how white won.

Hoember, please show us how the game continued (without attachments).  

Thanks for showing us this interesting position!

EDIT:  I just ran this position past Fritz 9, and it quickly agreed that 1...f5 2.Rg3 Bf6 3.Be5 (all White moves are Fritz' suggestions) Be5 4.de5 f4! the position is about equal.  In fact, it prefers Black's position slightly!

I don't see how either side wins from this position without considerable help.

Fritz also suggested 1...Kf7!?.  As a human, I prefer 1...f5, but I will learn a great deal by studying 1...Kf7. ~SF


Funny, as a human I preferred 1...Kf7

(Intending Rfe8, Bf8, etc.) with equality. The position is equal anyway provided white gets his rook back to the e-file where it should be. Black's "bad bishop" may be good in the future due to all of white's pawns being on dark squares, but given the closed nature it'll likely be a draw anyway.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: good B-bad B (a sample game of mine)
Reply #2 - 05/28/09 at 18:22:59
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Of course, since this was a correspondence game, both players had to be extremely precise.  

My comments are based on about 3 minutes of looking at the board without reference to attachments.  (I don't like to open attachments because I fear viruses.)

Since it's Black to move, my first candidate is 1...f5.  I would not fear either 2.Be5 or .Rg3



2.Be5 Bf6 and I don't see how Black loses the double-rook endgame by force.  (White does have the advantage due to the weak b-pawn and the open e-file, but I don't think it's enough.)

2.Rg3 Bf6 is even more difficult for white.  Black will be able to defend the 7th rank with Rf7, and I don't see how white won.

Hoember, please show us how the game continued (without attachments).  

Thanks for showing us this interesting position!

EDIT:  I just ran this position past Fritz 9, and it quickly agreed that 1...f5 2.Rg3 Bf6 3.Be5 (all White moves are Fritz' suggestions) Be5 4.de5 f4! the position is about equal.  In fact, it prefers Black's position slightly!

I don't see how either side wins from this position without considerable help.

Fritz also suggested 1...Kf7!?.  As a human, I prefer 1...f5, but I will learn a great deal by studying 1...Kf7. ~SF
  
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Re: good B-bad B (a sample game of mine)
Reply #1 - 05/28/09 at 12:29:44
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I think White should immediately activate the Rg4 to avoid drifting into a passive position.
Perhaps Rg4-g3-b3 is an idea?
  

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HoemberChess
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good B-bad B (a sample game of mine)
05/27/09 at 18:00:18
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In the attachment is a PGN for a correspondence game of mine, in which I was Black.


The position after 22.Be5-f4

I am asking for help regarding this endgame part. (The opening and middlegame parts are indifferent for our analyzis, of course.)
I won this game (as Black), but could White have done better?
My questions are in the PGN.
« Last Edit: 05/28/09 at 13:06:14 by HoemberChess »  

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