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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Markovich Doctine (Read 49123 times)
TicklyTim
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #25 - 06/02/09 at 15:48:28
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ANDREW BRETT wrote on 06/02/09 at 12:47:07:
If the fiancetto was so easy for Black , I'd be surprised as Avrukh is recommnending it for white ! Go figure !


As a quick 'aside':
Are the details of this book out yet?
I've searched, but not successfully. (a link to QualityChess seemed to go nowehere).
The fianchetto line would definitely fit the criteria for this thread!
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #24 - 06/02/09 at 15:26:25
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I don't agree with Willempie.  You don't want to be playing into positions which are quite linear, for want of a better word. Usually, your opp has to 1) choose an appropriate plan, 2) execute well. Why let him have (1) for free, with the bonus that if he does have a moment of inspiration or flat lucks out, there's no way back.

  

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Willempie
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #23 - 06/02/09 at 15:04:40
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Dink Heckler wrote on 06/02/09 at 14:38:34:
I tend to agree with Markovich. It's a bit like monkeys on a typewriter; give them long enough, and they'll type out Shakespeare. Well, guess what? In these lines, the typewriter has very few keys, and Black only needs to type one (longish) word. Also, as Black is lower rated, he probably won't have any issues with going all in (if he has any sense), so perhaps, when we get over the horizon, that optimistic sac will turn out to have been inspired.

Why subject yourself to this as White? make Black think...don't let him play sac, sac, errr maybe mate, who knows?

Nah not really. Unlike with openings such as the Giuoco or the King's gambit the real problem is building up the attack properly.
As a patzer I screw up the latter by not executing a winning combination (or more often I execute it wrongly), in the KID I screw up because I dont build up the attack properly, often because my opponent is not letting me have it all my way, often by demolishing my queenside. I dont even get to execute my mating combination wrongly Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #22 - 06/02/09 at 14:38:34
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I tend to agree with Markovich. It's a bit like monkeys on a typewriter; give them long enough, and they'll type out Shakespeare. Well, guess what? In these lines, the typewriter has very few keys, and Black only needs to type one (longish) word. Also, as Black is lower rated, he probably won't have any issues with going all in (if he has any sense), so perhaps, when we get over the horizon, that optimistic sac will turn out to have been inspired.

Why subject yourself to this as White? make Black think...don't let him play sac, sac, errr maybe mate, who knows?
  

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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #21 - 06/02/09 at 14:19:15
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Willempie wrote on 06/02/09 at 13:57:45:
Markovich wrote on 06/02/09 at 12:59:06:
Schaakhamster,

I don't think it applies to just any opening.  My point was that in the Mar del Plata, the board is sliced in two, and Black is able to devote most or all of his thinking to developing a stock attack.  Though BPaulsen disagrees, I think this isn't a terribly difficult problem for your typical KID player.  When you are the stronger player, why give him the luxury of playing A, B, C when you can test him instead across the whole board?

Before this gets to the level of a Monroe doctrine I would like to give some points as to why I disagree.
-I dont think the kingside attack is that easy to play. Sure there are some standard ideas, but they dont always work and the defense has similar standard ideas.
-White's queenside pressure is very dangerous and allows for more flexibility. To put the point in a very nuanced way: Black has to mate white as otherwise he is completely lost.
-Patzers arent patzers because they can deliver an attack in the style of Kasparov, Radjabov or Fischer. Meaning black has the pressure to deliver an attack (see above) but has less ability to do so. Imo it isnt easier to play the KID attack than it is to play against the Averbakh.
-If space and closed structures is your thing, there is even less need to switch to another line.

Lastly can someone tell this to my opponents? I never seem to get my kingside attack going in the way that is advocated in the books and I would appreciate them switching to easier stuff such as an exchange or Samisch. Grin



I was thinking alongside the same lines although in practice I do follow the Markovich Doctrine. From a theoretical (not chesswise) viewpoint I'm with Willempie.
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #20 - 06/02/09 at 13:57:45
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Markovich wrote on 06/02/09 at 12:59:06:
Schaakhamster,

I don't think it applies to just any opening.  My point was that in the Mar del Plata, the board is sliced in two, and Black is able to devote most or all of his thinking to developing a stock attack.  Though BPaulsen disagrees, I think this isn't a terribly difficult problem for your typical KID player.  When you are the stronger player, why give him the luxury of playing A, B, C when you can test him instead across the whole board?

Before this gets to the level of a Monroe doctrine I would like to give some points as to why I disagree.
-I dont think the kingside attack is that easy to play. Sure there are some standard ideas, but they dont always work and the defense has similar standard ideas.
-White's queenside pressure is very dangerous and allows for more flexibility. To put the point in a very nuanced way: Black has to mate white as otherwise he is completely lost.
-Patzers arent patzers because they can deliver an attack in the style of Kasparov, Radjabov or Fischer. Meaning black has the pressure to deliver an attack (see above) but has less ability to do so. Imo it isnt easier to play the KID attack than it is to play against the Averbakh.
-If space and closed structures is your thing, there is even less need to switch to another line.

Lastly can someone tell this to my opponents? I never seem to get my kingside attack going in the way that is advocated in the books and I would appreciate them switching to easier stuff such as an exchange or Samisch. Grin
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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TicklyTim
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #19 - 06/02/09 at 13:36:10
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I think another issue with these lines is the clock.
I'm habitually in time trouble.
Having to defend against these automated king attacks is time consuming. There is little or no chance to flick out a few simple moves.
I do gain a bit of time banging out theory, but I soon slump into thought trying to deflect all the possible attacks!

A few quick (sloppy) moves can be terminal in these positions - and there is no choice on bailing out. You are committed to having to protect your king! It is managaeble, but at club level (maybe my poor defensive technique) and quick time limits I do think it's difficult to defend.

Why put yourself under the pressure in a game you don't want to lose (against a weaker player). If playing someone much stronger, the randomizing factor might help - that is, you might spot all the defences and end up with a good position!
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #18 - 06/02/09 at 13:26:19
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I'm not totally convinced I must say.
Huh


  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #17 - 06/02/09 at 12:59:06
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Schaakhamster,

I don't think it applies to just any opening.  My point was that in the Mar del Plata, the board is sliced in two, and Black is able to devote most or all of his thinking to developing a stock attack.  Though BPaulsen disagrees, I think this isn't a terribly difficult problem for your typical KID player.  When you are the stronger player, why give him the luxury of playing A, B, C when you can test him instead across the whole board?

I don't think that developing Black's play in any given Sicilian is as easy as developing Black's stock KID attack.  I'm not a 1.e4 player, but if I were, I certainly would not shun the Open Sicilian against any class of player.

I probably would not criticise BPaulsen's personal preference for White's side of the Mar del Plata, however, since he appears to revel in its technicalities.  Relatedly, someone above said that a corollary of my idea (it's not really mine, of course) is that Black should not allow the Yugoslav Attack.  I'm not sure that's true, because the whole point of taking up the Dragon is to outgun your opponent in the deep complexities of that very line.  Even so, if I had both the Dragon and the Taimanov in my repertoire I would probably not play the Dragon against weaker players, just because the main antidote to it is one of those A, B, C systems.  I would play instead the more fluid Taimanov, which I would think would be a more severe test of their general chess ability. 
  

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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #16 - 06/02/09 at 12:50:11
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Markovich wrote on 06/01/09 at 12:28:27:
All right, dear chessfriends, I am now going to promulgate the Markovich Doctrine:  Never let the weaker player have his standard kingside attack in the King's Indian, but instead make him play a fluid game of chess.  In particular never let him have the Mar del Plata variation or anything that resembles it.

Why on earth would you gamble with your king against someone that you'll very likely outplay in an ordinary game of chess?  Why would you offer him the chance to concentrate, to the exclusion of all else, on devising ways to blast open your castled position?  So play the Gligoric, the Fianchetto, or the Averbach and take away his chances, along with his fun.  




Couldn't this Doctrine also apply to other openings? Almost every opening has it strong points and against almost every opening there are variations that aim to restrict these strong points.

Take for instance the Sicilian:
Main idea: black exchanges his c-pawn for white d-pawn and thus positional superiority in exchange for some pressure.
Counter: white plays 2 c3 with the idea of d4 cxd4 cxd4


  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #15 - 06/02/09 at 12:47:07
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If the fiancetto was so easy for Black , I'd be surprised as Avrukh is recommnending it for white ! Go figure !
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #14 - 06/02/09 at 12:29:00
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This is interesting, because of course you wouldn't want to allow such an attack against a higher rated player as well, so essentially this means that the main line of the KID is not playable for white.
Great news for black!  Cheesy
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #13 - 06/02/09 at 11:58:09
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TicklyTim wrote on 06/02/09 at 10:46:59:
(My first post!!)

The thing is that the weaker (or level) player can play at a much higher level by following standard rountines.


Welcome to Chesspub, all the more since you make my point exactly.
  

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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #12 - 06/02/09 at 11:56:42
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BPaulsen wrote on 06/02/09 at 02:43:17:
Markovich wrote on 06/02/09 at 01:16:21:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/01/09 at 21:16:09:
BPaulsen wrote on 06/01/09 at 19:51:08:
The Fianchetto is =,

Really? Please tell me how Black equalizes and I will play the KID myself as Black! Smiley


Yeah, I wondered about that myself.  

But BPaulsen, without meaning to be argumentative, I would be happy to know what you think Black's equalizing idea is against Averbach's.  Since I play this line with las Blancas, I could prepare better if I knew what strong Blacks thought about it.


I've thought Radjabov's 6...Na6 is okay, as well as his other preference 6...c5 7. d5 a6.

Since you've probably done more work on this system than me, if you have lines leading to a white edge after both lines I'll gladly alter my statement.

Regarding the Fianchetto KID, I only view that as equal because black has an easy equalizer in a Grunfeld transposition. If black sticks to the KID I think white is better.

I'm not a strong black, I'm not strong, nor am I a KID advocate, I would love nothing more than a variation leading to a nice white plus.


No, I haven't done so much work on Averbach's, and I fully respect your judgement about it.  I was really just curious to know what you thought about how Black should equalize.  I certainly wasn't out to challenge your view of it, and I am grateful for your reply.

I do plan to put in some serious study time on this system, because I've been able to get good games in a series of cc experiments.
  

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TicklyTim
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #11 - 06/02/09 at 10:46:59
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(My first post!!)

I tire of these easy attacks for black!

The thing is that the weaker (or level) player can play at a much higher level by following standard rountines. It's similar to the English attacks in the sicilian, and Fischers little quote on the Dragon.
The attacks and sacrifices aren't original thought and the weaker player can copy motifs they've seen before.

By playing a variation vs the KID that plays all over the board (rather than being focused on the white king) the weaker player has to think for themselves, and the difference in grade should then tell.
For these reason I'm thinking of either the Bayonet, the Fianchetto or the h3 systems.
What does anyone think of the h3 systems in this respect?
  
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