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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Markovich Doctine (Read 49158 times)
Markovich
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #70 - 03/26/10 at 19:13:51
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I was thinking of OTB chess when I set forth my immortal doctrine though, so I wouldn't join in that bit about computers.  But I do think that stronger players should avoid theoretical duels with weaker players, and since the Mar del Plata has become rather theoretical, that would tend to support the Markovich doctrine.
  

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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #69 - 03/26/10 at 18:57:11
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miamisharks wrote on 03/26/10 at 18:14:55:
I think this is such weak thinking. [...]


No, Markovich is right. There are at least three good arguments for the Markovich doctrine:

- The weaker player's chances increase with the randomness of the position. If it comes down to an attacing race, any advantage in positional uderstanding matters less, and the chance of blunders increases on both sides.

- If the game becomes a theory duel, it may be fought for a long time between the players' engines rather than their brains. And who knows who has the strongest engine, or has worked more on the specific line? Obviously the stronger player welcomes an early switch to carbon-based thinking.

- Often a big part of the difference in strength is due to different appreciation for, and strength in, endgames. This advantage is nullified if the game ends in an early checkmate.

These observations are only true on average of course; and a player should also strive to reach the types of positions he plays best most of the time. For someone who clearly excels in complicated, tactical play it may be right to go for that even against weaker players. But this is the exception, not the rule.

Personally, when I lose to weaker players, very often some tactical oversight is involved. The same is true for the games where I beat much stronger players (In my sole tournament win against a GM he blundered a rook in the endgame!). So it makes sense to play positionally against weaker players, and sharply against stronger players. Which was precisely Simon Webb's advice in the classic "Chess for Tigers".
  

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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #68 - 03/26/10 at 18:14:55
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I think this is such weak thinking. Even in very sharp lines, chess is not reduced to some sort of crapshoot where the underdog will stumble his way on a winning attack. There are many ways for a strong player to beat his weaker opponent. One of them is play better in "race of attacks" situations.

This whole idea of the better player relying on his superior "understanding" and playing "just a game of chess" is also misguided I think. The better player is better because he tends to play better moves, regardless of the type of position.

Of course this is not serious evidence, but I imagine other people on this board have similar experiences. ELO 2300 players beat me the vast majority of the time, just like I tend to beat up on ELO 1900 players - regardless of the nature of the position/opening.
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #67 - 02/05/10 at 19:18:48
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #66 - 02/05/10 at 18:36:16
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TopNotch wrote on 01/19/10 at 01:19:36:
OldGrizzly wrote on 06/18/09 at 11:30:37:
I enjoy to see the discussion coming up to that variation again, after TopNotch has shown his win, similar to Charbonneau, a few weeks ago.
I also think that 17.Kh1 is the critical test for the whole variation. Everyone who want to play that variation must have an answer to 17.Kh1!
Perhaps Toppy is generous to give some of his ideas…  Smiley


I have one or two ideas currently under development in the lab , and if Golubev fails to address this line directly in his February 2010 update I will explore some of those ideas here. To be honest I think black is ok in Buhmann's line, but not being satisfied with that I've since been preoccupied with finding ways to mate White by force, and not always unsuccessfully. Wink

Stay tuned.

Tops Smiley   


Say, would someone be good enough to point me to TopNotch's post of his nice win with 9...Ne8?  I'll be darned if I can find it.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #65 - 01/19/10 at 01:19:36
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OldGrizzly wrote on 06/18/09 at 11:30:37:
I enjoy to see the discussion coming up to that variation again, after TopNotch has shown his win, similar to Charbonneau, a few weeks ago.
I also think that 17.Kh1 is the critical test for the whole variation. Everyone who want to play that variation must have an answer to 17.Kh1!
Perhaps Toppy is generous to give some of his ideas…  Smiley


I have one or two ideas currently under development in the lab , and if Golubev fails to address this line directly in his February 2010 update I will explore some of those ideas here. To be honest I think black is ok in Buhmann's line, but not being satisfied with that I've since been preoccupied with finding ways to mate White by force, and not always unsuccessfully. Wink

Stay tuned.

Tops Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #64 - 06/18/09 at 11:30:37
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I enjoy to see the discussion coming up to that variation again, after TopNotch has shown his win, similar to Charbonneau, a few weeks ago.
I also think that 17.Kh1 is the critical test for the whole variation. Everyone who want to play that variation must have an answer to 17.Kh1!
Perhaps Toppy is generous to give some of his ideas…  Smiley
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #63 - 06/17/09 at 20:30:01
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TonyRo wrote on 06/17/09 at 20:24:34:
Yeah you're right. I don't have the book, but I found the games by Bohmann and Beliavsky. The Beliavsky game is nothing to write home about, and I think Black was fine until about move 23 or so, but the Bohmann game with Qa4 was a stronger idea, and it looks like Black is probably going to end up worse here. Thanks for the info....back to the main lines!  Grin


Just noting that the Khalifman series recommends the same line via transposition (the position on move 20 transposes) so Bf8 may bust the entire line.

The problem is 14. Ba3 with 17. Kh1 has black needing improvements. I haven't found them, but perhaps some GM/engine might.
  

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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #62 - 06/17/09 at 20:24:34
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Yeah you're right. I don't have the book, but I found the games by Bohmann and Beliavsky. The Beliavsky game is nothing to write home about, and I think Black was fine until about move 23 or so, but the Bohmann game with Qa4 was a stronger idea, and it looks like Black is probably going to end up worse here. Thanks for the info....back to the main lines!  Grin
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #61 - 06/17/09 at 20:01:17
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TonyRo wrote on 06/17/09 at 19:58:39:
So what is the actual line then that you're talking about, since in my line 15. Ba3 is the move, and since that's the line in Khalifman as well. You'd like to play 14. Ba3 Ng6 15. b5, is that it? And then if Black continues like in my line, 15...dxc5 16. Bxc5 Rf7 17. Kh1. The point is just to deal a5?


The approach in the original OFWAK 1 is better for this line.

14. Ba3 with b5, Bxc5, then Kh1.

The point is the break d6 comes much sooner. It was chosen by Buhmann and Beliavsky fairly recently with good success.
  

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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #60 - 06/17/09 at 19:58:39
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So what is the actual line then that you're talking about, since in my line 15. Ba3 is the move, and since that's the line in Khalifman as well. You'd like to play 14. Ba3 Ng6 15. b5, is that it? And then if Black continues like in my line, 15...dxc5 16. Bxc5 Rf7 17. Kh1. The point is just to deal a5?
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #59 - 06/17/09 at 19:54:02
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TonyRo wrote on 06/17/09 at 14:51:45:
Well I've tracked down a copy of OFWAK 1b (hopefully this is the book in question) and I have to say, he doesn't even cover my intended variation! He gives the line:

10. c5 f5 11. Nd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. Nc4 g5 14. a4 Ng6 15. Ba3 Rf7 16. b5 dxc5 17. Bxc5 h5 18. a5 g4 19. b6 g3 20. Kh1! but now only covers 20...Ne8 and 20...Nh7. That's all fine and dandy, but what about 20...Bf8? This move was suggested by Golubev in Understanding the King's Indian and used successully in the posted game above by Charbonneau in 2008. After 20. Bg1 Nh4!? I'm not sure that White is that much better.


Regardless of if 20...Bf8 is any good, 17. Kh1 (in the 14. Ba3 variation) is a more prominent problem for black right now anyway.
  

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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #58 - 06/17/09 at 14:51:45
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Well I've tracked down a copy of OFWAK 1b (hopefully this is the book in question) and I have to say, he doesn't even cover my intended variation! He gives the line:

10. c5 f5 11. Nd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. Nc4 g5 14. a4 Ng6 15. Ba3 Rf7 16. b5 dxc5 17. Bxc5 h5 18. a5 g4 19. b6 g3 20. Kh1! but now only covers 20...Ne8 and 20...Nh7. That's all fine and dandy, but what about 20...Bf8? This move was suggested by Golubev in Understanding the King's Indian and used successully in the posted game above by Charbonneau in 2008. After 20. Bg1 Nh4!? I'm not sure that White is that much better.
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #57 - 06/16/09 at 19:10:50
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I appreciate the reference and comments. I sincerely doubt I'll improve over Khalifman, but at the very least I'll learn a lot more about the variation. It's no big deal, since I don't mind playing the normal lines against 9. Nd2 or 9. b4, it was just nice to not only have a dangerous surprise weapon, but to be able to consolidate two major tries for White into one move for Black!
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #56 - 06/16/09 at 19:04:25
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TonyRo wrote on 06/16/09 at 18:58:25:
Ah crap I don't have that book! Leave it to Khalifman to screw it up....I will get it and get back to you on this one.  Grin


He definitely takes the line seriously, and has white walking a tight-rope. He continually points out why white can't deviate, or black gets a huge attack. His variation ends on move 28(!) with +=.

He doesn't mention 17. Kh1, but I find it interesting since:

A) White plays the move later anyway in Khalifman's variation.

B) It's been played recently by 2500+ players with a good score for white.

Either way, it's an extra option for white.
  

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