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Poll Question: The best player on the Black side of KID is:



« Last Modified by: rossia on: 06/01/09 at 18:54:41 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Top 100 KID games (Read 12101 times)
Hoppers
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #33 - 08/22/09 at 10:41:23
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Have to say I very much enjoyed Summerscale-Jones from the recent British Championships.  Was especially pleaing because the finish was beyond the horizon of most computer programs; and so all the irritating online viewers sitting behind their silicon friends were shown up - ha!

Extremely nice finish though and a tactical idea to remember for that particular KID line as well IMO.
  

1, "You very rarely sacrifice pieces"&&2, "That's because I spend most of my time losing them instead"
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DrFractal
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #32 - 08/22/09 at 07:53:48
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Another classic is Kortchnoi - Fischer, 1970
  
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #31 - 06/30/09 at 20:30:34
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Bronstein,David I - Krogius,Nikolai V [E80]
URS-ch25 Riga Riga, 1958
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #30 - 06/19/09 at 15:58:25
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belyavsky - nunn

kavalek -kasparov

almost any fischer game vs clasical

I voted for Kasparov though as he took on the samisch too against top plyers which fischer avoided
  
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #29 - 06/16/09 at 17:28:48
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This game:

Botvinnik,Mikhail - Smyslov,Vassily [E68]
World Championship 20th Moscow (14), 15.04.1954 [Kasparov]

"Vassely Smyslov, the great innovator with the black pieces, had less influence on the development of openings theory when he played with the white pieces. Smyslov was simply satisfied with a comfortable, free game. His favourite choices with White were quite significant: 1.d4   1...Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0–0 5.Nc3 I guess Botvinnik was quite pleased that Smyslov didn't take the opportunity to switch to the Grunfeld with 4...d5. The King's Indian had never occurred before in Smyslov's games, while Botvinnik had great experience in this opening. 5...d6 6.Nf3 Nbd7 7.0–0 e5 8.e4 c6 9.Be3 It is important to note that Botvinnik's last move was a novelty, at least for official openings theory. However, in his deep preparation of unusual openings (for his style at least) Smyslov predicted such a turn of events. With his counter he eventually put White's idea out of business! Today the best options are 9.h3 or 9.b3. [After the match in 1954 the King's Indian had practically vanished from Smyslov's playing repertoire. But in 1980, playing Bukal, he showed how profound his preparations for the first match with Botvinnik had been: 9.h3 Qb6 10.Re1 exd4 11.Nxd4 Ne8! For years the world's best experts had been playing automatically 11...Re8 and experiencing certain difficulties in this opening. Smyslov's invention in 1954 (!) dramatically changed the character of the position.Wherever the white knight on d4 goes Black is able to develop effective counterplay. That is why white players today predominantly prefer 10.c5 – even Karpov has finally switched to this very sharp line. What could be a higher appreciation of Smyslov's knight retreat to e8 in the King's Indian.] 9...Ng4! 10.Bg5 Qb6 11.h3 exd4! 12.Na4 Qa6 13.hxg4 b5 Now the temporarily sacrificed piece will be returned, after which the multiple pawn weaknesses on both sides make the position dynamically equal. 14.Nxd4 [Many years later, in 1992, Yussupov tried an improvement against me in the Linares tournament: 14.Be7 Re8 15.Bxd6 bxa4 16.e5 Nevertheless after Aber nach 16...c5! Black holds the balance, e.g. kann Schwarz das Gleichgewicht halten, z.B. 17.Nxd4 (Yusupov's attempt to complicate the situation further with 17.b4!? cxb4 18.Qxd4 Bb7 led to a murky position that eventually backfired. He underestimated Black's potential and eventually lost the game.) 17...Bb7 18.Nb5 Bxg2 19.Kxg2 Bxe5] 14...bxa4 15.Nxc6 White takes up the challenge. [15.b3 was also playable: 15...Ne5 16.Be7 Bxg4 17.f3 Rfe8 18.Bxd6 Rad8 19.c5 Bc8 is unclear(19...Nd3 20.Nxc6!) ] 15...Qxc6 16.e5 Qxc4 17.Bxa8 Nxe5 In return for the exchange Black has excellent compensation. The white pawns are vulnerable, his pieces disorientated, his king's position weakened. 18.Rc1 [In case of 18.Qxd6 Bxg4 (18...Qxg4?! 19.Bf6!) 19.Bd5 Qd3 Black shouldn't worry too much.] 18...Qb4?! [18...Qb5! is far more unpleasant for White.] 19.a3 Botvinnik is missing an opportunity to push his opponent to the edge. [The tempting 19.Be7 Bxg4 20.Bxd6! would have left Black with a narrow path to avoid slightly worse, dull endgames. 20...Qb6 21.Qd5 Bf3! (21...Rd8 22.Bc7 Rxd5 23.Bxb6 Rd2 24.Bxa7 Rxb2 25.a3) 22.Qc5 Rxa8 23.Bxe5 Qe6! 24.Qe3 (24.Bxg7?? Qh3 mating.; 24.Rc3 Bb7 25.Re3 Qh3 26.f3 is not clear, but roughly equal.) ] 19...Qxb2 20.Qxa4 Bb7! Now White's king safety is becoming a serious issue. 21.Rb1? The result of an obvious miscalculation [21.Bxb7 Qxb7 22.Rc3 h6 (22...Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Qxf3 24.Be7) 23.Bf4 Nf3+ 24.Rxf3 Qxf3 25.Bxd6 Rd8 26.Bc5 would have settled the game peacefully.] 21...Nf3+ 22.Kh1 Bxa8! 23.Rxb2 Nxg5+ 24.Kh2 Nf3+ 25.Kh3 Bxb2 Black has got quite enough in return for one queen. His four pieces get together quickly and organize the final attack on the defenceless white king. 26.Qxa7 Be4 27.a4 Kg7 28.Rd1 Be5 29.Qe7 Rc8 The rook is preparing to deliver the mortal blow. 30.a5 Rc2 31.Kg2 Nd4+ 32.Kf1 Bf3 33.Rb1 Nc6 and White resigned.[33...Nc6 34.Qc7 Bd4 35.Qxd6 Rxf2+ 36.Ke1 Re2+ 37.Kf1 Rh2 requires no comment.]  0–1"


  
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #28 - 06/16/09 at 06:58:46
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The Botvinnik-Smyslov game that is mentioned in an earlier post is enough to include Smyslov in a short list.  To win a WC game in 33 moves, as BLACK, in the KID is impressive.

Petrosian on the other hand, I agree with you.
  
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #27 - 06/16/09 at 03:23:11
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Paulsen is a genius of course.
Hell he was even playing the Rat...

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/15/09 at 08:23:06:
After all, where are J. Polgar, Timman, Nunn, Stein, Tal, or ...Smyslov?


Err, Smyslov? playing the Gruenfeld is a grave sin.

Even Petrosian, does he really deserve to be here?
I'm new to the KID but I mostly think of him on the other side of the board.
Playing an opening when everyone including the dog is playing it doesn't make you a hero, does it?
  
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #26 - 06/15/09 at 18:54:46
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Here an oldie for your consideration, the black approach seems rather modern.
[Event "Leipzig m"]
[Date "1879.07.21"]
[Round "2"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Adolf Schwarz"]
[Black "Louis Paulsen"]
1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 O-O 6.Nf3 Nbd7 7.Bd3 e5 8.fxe5 dxe5 9.d5 c6 10.O-O Ng4 11.Qe2 Nc5 12.Bc2 f5 13.h3 fxe4 14.Nxe4 Qb6 15.Kh1 Nxe4 16.Bxe4 Nf6 17.dxc6 Nxe4 18.Qxe4 bxc6 19.Qe2 Be6 20.Bg5 Qc5 21.Nd2 Qd4 22.b3 Bf5 23.Nf3 Qd3 24.Qd2 e4 25.Qxd3 exd3 26.Rad1 Rae8 27.Nd2 h6 28.Bf4 g5 29.Bd6 Rf7 30.Bc5 a6 31.g4 Bg6 32.Rxf7 Kxf7 33.Rf1+ Kg8 34.Kg2 Re2+ 35.Rf2 Bc3 36.Nb1 Be1 0-1
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #25 - 06/15/09 at 17:39:32
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Paddy and TN,

Good calls on both players!  I had forgotten Mestel.  (He did become a GM, didn't he?) Mestel deserves a shout out at least as much as Vogt, who definitely contributed some theoretically interesting games. I hesitated about Ivanchuk because his victories as White against the King's Indian stick out in my mind even more than his wins as Black.
  
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #24 - 06/15/09 at 13:17:51
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Another player who has been very successful both playing the King's Indian and vanquishing it is Vassily Ivanchuk, who if I recall correctly defeated Radjabov as Black with his own weapon quite recently. I can't remember the game and don't have the time to search for it now, so if someone can find the game, then that would be appreciated.
  

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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #23 - 06/15/09 at 10:07:16
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In the 1980s the English GM Jonathan Mestel was a feared practitioner of the KID (and the Dragon) and he played some beautiful, inspirational games. His good scores with Black helped England to some great team performances in those days.
  
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #22 - 06/15/09 at 08:23:06
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I hate that Piket-Kasparov game!  It ruined my main line as White against the KID!  That #$%^$# ^^%$% Kasparov and his brilliant play!

I voted for Kasparov as the greatest KID player of all time.

But I'm glad to see Bronstein has an honorable mention as second.  Geller should also be way up there, as his theoretical contributions almost equal Bronstein's.

NB: Ten years from now, I wonder how many people will remember the KID games of either Smirin or Radjabov.  Perhaps Radjabov will show us something in the future, but considering all the great KID players of the 1960s-1980s, it seems a shame to suggest these two are "greater".

After all, where are J. Polgar, Timman, Nunn, Stein, Tal, or ...Smyslov?
  
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #21 - 06/13/09 at 23:21:23
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Uruk wrote on 06/13/09 at 22:53:50:
0k, 60% for black champs and 70% for white champs.

Seems normal since over all openings White has a 10% advantage.

Performance speaks better than percentage tho.

That wasnt really my meaning (though I did like the teasing Wink).
When you want to study an opening via games you better look at defeats as well. Ie if you read through most repertoire books, which use illustrative games you usually dont have games featuring the opponent crushing that opening. Rowson's Grunfeld is an example of the opposite and one of the reasons it is such a good book as you know why you have to avoid stuff.

Plus of course I feel that when you oppose the opening like Kramnik does you also have to display great understanding of that opening.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #20 - 06/13/09 at 22:53:50
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0k, 60% for black champs and 70% for white champs.

Seems normal since over all openings White has a 10% advantage.

Performance speaks better than percentage tho.
  
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Re: Top 100 KID games
Reply #19 - 06/13/09 at 14:49:35
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rossia wrote on 06/13/09 at 13:06:10:
1.Kasparov: 146 games, succes ratio 63,35%
2.Fischer: 111 games, succes ratio 62,61%
3.Radjabov: 113 games, succes ratio 55,30%

Kasparov as white has only 3 losses in a serious game against Spassky, Topalov and Anand. His score is somewhere over 70%
Fischer only one game that he won.
Radjabov has only one loss that I am aware of as white.

I believe Kramnik and korchnoi also score over 70% as white.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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