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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch (Read 187241 times)
Ametanoitos
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #31 - 07/01/09 at 13:04:02
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No need to give variations. Rooks are exchanged at the c file (and queens also). The Ne8 knight is exchanged on c7 and the other goes to e5 and likely it will be exchanged also. What remains? the Bc8 against the Bg2. Yes, Kramnik said that these bishops have the same value but only at the middlegame!

If Black doesn't exchange rooks or queens, white will use the c file to penetrate black's position. So.....why the need to provide variations?  Grin Typical Kotovian (or Karpovian or Rubinsteinean?) long plan.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #30 - 07/01/09 at 12:05:20
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[quote]No, no!  Black is worse in this position. The most likely senario is to exchange everything (except maybe for a pair of knights) and play with the bad bishop against the good one. I'd say that after 7...Nbd7 8.cxd5 White is at least slightly better.[/quote]

To help discussion, could you give a typical variation here (or at least the start of one) after 12 gf Ne8?
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #29 - 07/01/09 at 09:36:28
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No, no!  Black is worse in this position. The most likely senario is to exchange everything (except maybe for a pair of knights) and play with the bad bishop against the good one. I'd say that after 7...Nbd7 8.cxd5 White is at least slightly better.

@ brabo:
After 7...O-O 8.Nc3 Ne4 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.Bg5 why not 10...Qe8!? or 9...fxe4 10.Bg5 Qe8. It is tricky to analyse these positions and look only to the engines evaluations because they change their minds very easily with a little "human" help! I know this from experience.

But to be fair i don't like 8...Ne4.

At the tournament in Kavala 2008 i played with Black against a strong opponent who played egainst me 7.Qc2 O-O 8.Nc3. When i saw this move i thought it looked bad! It is not a typical stonewall move but this shows clearly the lack of experience i had then. I used to play the Classical Dutch but i considered it not a good choice against strong opponents, so i used to play the stonewall against them (a bad thought process!).

So, i played without to much thought 8...Qe7 and when white played 9.Rb1 i was amazed again! I had no idea of this plan, so i once again thought that it was wrong! I played 9...b6 with confidence. "I am playing all the typical moves and my opponent is playing bizzare ones!". To be fair with myself i had calculated some lines. I saw White wants to play b4 but he cannot do it now because i control the b4 square, so i calculated 10.a3 when i wanted to play 10...a5 but then i saw 11.Na4! After a while i realised that 10.a3 Ba6 was OK so, i played 9...b6 just to be hit by another surprize: 10.Bg5!. Suddenly it all makes sense for white now. After something like 10...h6 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 now 12.b4 is possible and if 11...Rxf6 my Bc8 is hanging so White can take twice on d5. My opponent at this point had a slightly more pleasant position and he outplayed me and won the game.

When i analysed this game at my home with the help of Shipkov's cd i saw that in this position after 8.Nc3 Bd7! is good. Now there is not the "Euwe plan" with Nd3-Ne5 when the Bh5 is not good, so this move makes sence! After 9.Rb1?! b5 has to be good now or better is 9...Be8 10.b4 f4! So, what is wrong with 8...Bd7?

Or what is wrong with 8...Qe8? as it tis analysed in game 17 page 62? I don;t think that 8.Nc3 is a problem as you state in your reply.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #28 - 06/30/09 at 11:37:08
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On first blush, 7 ...Nbd7 looks better to me than 7 ...0-0 if White's best is [7 ...Nbd7] 8 cd cd 9 Nc3 0-0!? 10 Nb5 Bb8, etc. In this line where White invades on c7 can't Black 'repel boarders' and claim equality? What am I missing?
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #27 - 06/29/09 at 20:07:42
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Ametanoitos wrote on 06/26/09 at 11:55:41:


And now some bad things:

The experimental structure is interesting but in some lines it is comfusing to go back and forth, between the games and the theory section to try to find what is the right move or what is the clear reccomendation. 

And now the serious stuff! In S.O. 1.d4 J.Cox reccomends a line against the Stonewall that never was considered critical. I used this line to a series of lectures of mine in a local club when i tried to provid them with a good repertoire with 1.d4. I have done a lot of research in Cox's line because of these lectures and i was expecting to see if my conclusions matched the ones of the authors. I was very dissapointed when i saw in page 65 the line 7.Qc2 Nbd7? which is given as the one of the two reccomendations. Cox didn't considered this move in his book so i tried to find out if this is a good move or not. I realised that White has a big advantage after 8.cxd5! (not even mentioned in the book!) 8...cxd5 (taking with the e pawn and sacing the f pawn is a typical sequence but here doesn't work because the Bd6 is hanging, so Black doesn't have enough compensation) 9.Nc3! (with Nb5 in mind) 9...a6 10.Bf4! Bxf4 11.gxf4 O-O 12.Na4! the classical game Taimanov-Lisitsin, 1949 is a good demostration of correct play by White here!

So, we pass the unfortunate issue of 7...Nbd7 and go to the other reccomendation 7...O-O! Now Cox uses the game Khenkin-Vaisser, 1999 which continued: 8.Ne5! b6 9.Nc3! with the idea cxd5 and Nb5, 9...a6?! etc when White is better and won the game. B.Shipkov in his CB Cd analyses this game also and gives the improvement 9...Ne4! which Cox doesn't consider! When i did these lectures i now chose the "easy" path and i said that here the engines prefer slightly White because i suppose that Black has weekened his queenside with b7-b6. It is true that the engines give a slight advantage to White but i think that the positio is equal.

Cox believes that the best move for Black is 8...Qe7! when he repeats a line given by Lautier: 9.Nd2 Ne4 10.Ndf3 b6 11.Bf4 Ba6 12.cxd5 cxd5 13.Rfc1 with white slightly better. I search in informant notes reveals that 10...b6?! is actually inaccurate and should be played only after white moves his knight on d3. So best is 10...Nd7! 11.Nd3 (11.Bf4 g5! 12.Nxd7 Bxd7 13.Bxd6 Nxd6!=) 11...b6! 12.Bf4
(12.Nfe5 Bxe5 13.Nxe5 Nxe5 14.dxe5 Bb7= or 13.dxe5 Bb7 14.f3 Nec5=) 
12...Bb7! 13.Bxd6 Qxd6 14.Nfe5 Nxe5 15.Nxe5 Nf6=

I was very dissapointed that this plan with Qc2 and Ne5 in this exact move order which demands by Black so great accurancy is not mentioned in the book.....

I would give 7,5 to 8 out of 10 to the book.


As a reviewer of some of the chapters I will try to give an answer to some of your comments and worries.

The experimental structure is new so automatically not to everybodies taste. I admit that first time that I saw the idea of the author, I was also sceptical but after a while I got used and even appreciated the concept. Instead of just dumps of info, we get entertaining lessons. Now as consequence to keep the lessons easy to read, you need to stick to the essence of the example games by keeping the sidenotes within limits. The theory parts at the end of each lesson fulfills the needs of the students which want to go further that just the lessons. A serious student won't mind that some forth and back reading will be necessary.

The line 7. Qc2 on page 65 in the book is only mentioned as a sidenote because as you said yourself except the Cox book , never been regarded as a critical independent line. From my personal 13 years of experience I only encountered it once in 25 official fide rated games (against several FM, IM and GM's) and even in that 1 game on the next move the FM already deviated from the critical path. So far the easy way to explain why your petline isn't mentioned. However there is more. In March this year so before publication I informed the author that the 3rd chapter especially around 7. Qc2/ 7. Nc3 needed a rework. I analysed the materials heavily for one month, sent the conclusions and hoped things could be rectified. Unfortunately we were too close to publication so we could only do some minorpatches, missing the major ideas of my analyses. The number of pages were already fixed so adding new pages wasn't possible anymore. A further delay of the deadline wasn't an option after the already several times postponed publication.

Enough talk, now some concrete stuff to help you further.
1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, Nbd7!? 8. cd5:, cd5: 9. Nc3, a6 (9. ..., 0-0 is a major alternative 10. Nb5, Bb8 11. Bf4, Bf4: 12. gf4:, Ne8 13. Rfc1, Nb6 14. Nc7, Nc7: 15. Qc7:, Nc4 16. Qd8:, Rd8: 17. b3, Nd6 18. Ne5, Bd7 and Rybka gives 0,27 for white) 10. Bf4!? (Likely stronger is 11. Bg5), Bf4: 11. gf4:, 0-0 12. Na4, Nb6 13. Nc5, Nc4!N 14. b3, Nd6 15. Ne5 and Rybka gives 0,29 for white so again very far from the claimed big advantage. 
1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0!? 8. Nc3! (8. Ne5!? as you explained yourself, gives with careful play good chances for equalty.), Ne4!? (For the many alternatives please drop me an email for the extensive analysis) 9. Ne4:!, de4: 10. Bg5, Be7 11. Be7:, Qe7: 12. Ne5, c5 13. e3, Nd7 14. Rad1, b6 15. Nd7:, Bd7: +/=

Conclusion there isn't an easy way to equalty in this sidesystem . This weak spot doesn't mean the book isn't relevant. At contrary in the many very well written lessons there are plenty of new and rare ideas explained which will help any amateur bring his general understanding of the stonewall to a higher level.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #26 - 06/29/09 at 15:02:43
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For somebody who is new to Stonewall Dutch, is Aagard's book a better introduction and should be looked at first followed by "Win with the Stonewall Dutch"?
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #25 - 06/29/09 at 11:31:12
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and above all after 4.e3 they consider only 4...d5?! which is known to be not so strong as 4...b6 or 4...Bb4+! which is the strongest move.


Given the book's title, it seems reasonable to cover the Stonewall wherever possible. 4.e3 is a sensible move which has been played by strong players and may give White a hope for a small plus. However, Black can probably achieve a comfortable position in various ways so it can hardly be considered critical in the same way as 4.g3 is. 4.Nc3 is something entirely different - it may not be objectively stronger but it more or less prevents a traditional Stonewall. 

After 4.e3, 4...d5 has been played by Nikolic, Moskalenko and Panchenko among others and Black has a plus score in the databases. If you add that 4...c6 normally will transpose quickly, also scores above 50%, and has been played by Malaniuk and Iljushin among others, it seems safe to assume that the Stonewall works OK for Black against 4.e3.

This obviously doesn't exclude the possibility that 4...Bb4+ is even better - it has been played by Rukavina, Laketic and Galakhov and also gives Black a small plus score.
  

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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #24 - 06/29/09 at 04:29:40
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Also they give the line Avrukh gives and say that it is just better for White. Not a single try to imrove.


Does this refer to: 
Quote:
10...Bxf6 11 Qxa3 c5!? hopes to show that the queen is misplaced on a3 - see note 'b' to White's 5th move in 8A. Avrukh only mentions 11...Qxa3 but in the hanging pawns positions which typically arise, Black needs his queen in order to support his kingside counterplay.

and:
Quote:
Avrukh recommends 11 cxd5. After 11...exd5 12 Nc3 Nc6 (12...Na6!?) 13 dxc5 Bxc5 14.Bxc5 bxc5 15 Na4!? Ne4 White may have an edge but Black has attacking chances.
?
  

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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #23 - 06/28/09 at 20:46:37
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Also a bad chapter the one on 1.d4 f5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6. There are a lot of options for White not covered here f.e. 4.Bf4 (they only consider the development of this bishop with a combination with the move c3, but in practice it is played also with c4), 4.a3, 4.Bg5, 4.Qc2 etc...and above all after 4.e3 they consider only 4...d5?! which is known to be not so strong as 4...b6 or 4...Bb4+! which is the strongest move. Also they give the line Avrukh gives and say that it is just better for White. Not a single try to imrove. A very lazy chapter! The more i read the book the more i am disapointed by it..... Sad
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #22 - 06/26/09 at 20:18:29
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No, the lines i am not impressed are with e6+f5. As for 1...f5 moves the reccomendations are OK f.e 2.Nc3 or 2.e4 an 2.Bg5 are all well covered. 

The ideas are the same even if the bishop is at d6. The main idea is cxd5, b3, Bb2, Nc3, e3, Ne2, Rc1, Qc2, Qb1 and finally a3+b4. Donaldson reccomends exchanging very early on d5 as soon as Black sets up the stonewall formation. It is obvious that Bd6 instead of Be7 improves over Kasparov's game but i would like to see some analysis here.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #21 - 06/26/09 at 19:57:45
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Isn't the Kasparov-Short game with an early ...Be7 (which doesn't fit well into a ...Bd6 repertoire if White plays a delayed d2-d4)?
  

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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #20 - 06/26/09 at 19:50:13
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How is it on the actual Dutch lines (where White plays 1.d4)?  I'm not interested in making 1...f5 work against every possible setup, but I would like 1.d4 f5 or 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 to work.

Edit: I guess you've critiqued some of these lines already.  Would you rate this book higher for someone that uses the 1.d4 e6 2. c4 (or Nf3)f5 move order, ignoring lines like the English?
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #19 - 06/26/09 at 17:41:13
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I just finished readind the chapter on the 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 moves (or should i say the "lesson"?) and i am dissapointed by this also. I disagree with some of the reccomendations there but the most serious omision is that they don't even consider a system with cxd5 which was played in the games Kasparov-Short and Psakhis-Vaisser (among many other games) and was reccomended by Donaldson in his strategic repertoire book. It is also given in NCO as +=.  Also, a recent reccomedation by Davies in his English opening DVD with 1.c4+g3+Bg2 and e3 with Ne2 at some point is not covered either! 

I think that a book for black players at club level should at least mention lines given by other popular books for white players because the propability to face these lines is big.

Please let me change my assesment for this book to 7 out of 10!  Sad
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #18 - 06/26/09 at 11:55:41
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I think that it is a great book and i feel that my money are well spent. Here are some of my thoughts (incomplete, because i havent read all the book):

When i first started studying and playing 1.d4 at the year 2004, i used a lot NCO and the first thing i did when i received the book was to see what the authors reccomended against NCO Nh3 line.
  I was really impressed with that! After 4.Nh3 they reccomend 4...Be7 but they also analyse 4...d5 where they give lots of reccomendations also! 5.O-O Bd6 6.c4 (i'm following game 40 in page 127) 6...c6 7.Bf4 Be7! 8.Nd2 Qb6! is given as a forced draw!  NCO's line is 8.Nd2 O-O 9.Qc2 which is analysed in page  131 by transposition (White played an early Qc2) when 9...Nh5!? and 9...Na6! (page 137) are given instead of 9...h6 10.Bxb8! Rxb8 11.Nf4 or 9...Nbd7 10.cxd5 which where the main lines at the time NCO was printed (and where the main lines in my own repertoire untill two years ago!)

The second thing i searched to find in the book is what the authors seem to believe that it is the most critical line today.Chapter 2 deals with that and is well written with lots of good analysis and i was impressed also with that!

And now some bad things:

The experimental structure is interesting but in some lines it is comfusing to go back and forth, between the games and the theory section to try to find what is the right move or what is the clear reccomendation. 

In the line 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d5 the main reccomedation is 3...Bb4+ 4.c3 Bd6 which is thought to be a slight improvement over 3...Bd6. Some years ago i remember analysing these positions with the help of my PC and Shipkov's Chessbase cd, Bronznik's Colle book and Williams Classical dutch book. I see now in my notebook underlined the words "Do not trust the Bd6 ideas!". Unfortunatelly i haven't saved the reason for this but i remember that in some lines the equality the books claimed was not easy to achieve if White plays simply chess. I see also that my repertoire choice is 3.d5 d6! 4.dxe6 Bxe6 5.Ng5 (given as clearly better for White by Bronznik) 5...Qe7 6.Nxe6 Qxe6 with c6+d5 to follow and Black is absolutely OK as i discovered in one of my games playing White! To be fair i haven't analysed yet their other reccomendation which is 3...exd5

Also, in page 168 they analyse 3.Bg5 Be7 4.h4!? This is not so bad as they say (Simon Williams also shares the same opinion) at least in practical play. I advice you to take seriously these not so critical variations because they become common choices at club level. I have faced 4.h4 two times (and 4.Bxe7 once!) and the first game went:
4...Nf6 5.Nc3 d5! (i think that 5...Ne4 is also equal but it is not so easy!) 6.e3 Nd7 7.Ne2! Ne4! 8.Nf4 Ndf6 9.Bd3 O-O 10.Ne5 At this point my clubmates (it was a crusial team event) were unhappy with my position and i received complaints like "You always have bad positions out of the opening when you use the Dutch. It is time to play something more serious!" When i asked what is wrong with this position i heard: "Cannot you see the knight on e5?" At this time i considered the knight to be a target an that my position was sound and when i returned to my board i played: 10...c5! 11.c3 cxd4! (this turned out to be a strong novelty! Ofcourse i didn;t know that at the time of the game, i only discovered this later) 12.exd4 (not 12.cxd4?! Qa5+ and Qb4 next with counterplay) 12...Qc7! 13.f3! (maybe the only move!) 13...Ng3? (13...Nd6!= with the idea Nf7 is at leat equal for Black) 14.Rh3 Ngh5 15.Ne2? Bd6! and i won at the end but my teamates didn't manage to won their "sound" positions and our team lost the match. But i have to admit that in the time trouble (yes, at move 15 we were both sort of time!) we both missed how strong is 15.Nxh5! I thought that White is slightly better and my opponent thought it was just equal but Rybka seems to think that White is clearly better!

In the second game i faced a comsiderably lower rated opponent than my last one and i experimenting with 5.Nc3 d6!? (5...Ne4 is the book move and 5...d5 was the last game) 6.Bxf6?! Bxf6 7.e4 O-O! 8.Bd3 Nc6 9.d5 Bxc3! and i won quickly! So, i think that 5...d6 is also a beeter move than 5...Ne4

And now the serious stuff! In S.O. 1.d4 J.Cox reccomends a line against the Stonewall that never was considered critical. I used this line to a series of lectures of mine in a local club when i tried to provid them with a good repertoire with 1.d4. I have done a lot of research in Cox's line because of these lectures and i was expecting to see if my conclusions matched the ones of the authors. I was very dissapointed when i saw in page 65 the line 7.Qc2 Nbd7? which is given as the one of the two reccomendations. Cox didn't considered this move in his book so i tried to find out if this is a good move or not. I realised that White has a big advantage after 8.cxd5! (not even mentioned in the book!) 8...cxd5 (taking with the e pawn and sacing the f pawn is a typical sequence but here doesn't work because the Bd6 is hanging, so Black doesn't have enough compensation) 9.Nc3! (with Nb5 in mind) 9...a6 10.Bf4! Bxf4 11.gxf4 O-O 12.Na4! the classical game Taimanov-Lisitsin, 1949 is a good demostration of correct play by White here!

So, we pass the unfortunate issue of 7...Nbd7 and go to the other reccomendation 7...O-O! Now Cox uses the game Khenkin-Vaisser, 1999 which continued: 8.Ne5! b6 9.Nc3! with the idea cxd5 and Nb5, 9...a6?! etc when White is better and won the game. B.Shipkov in his CB Cd analyses this game also and gives the improvement 9...Ne4! which Cox doesn't consider! When i did these lectures i now chose the "easy" path and i said that here the engines prefer slightly White because i suppose that Black has weekened his queenside with b7-b6. It is true that the engines give a slight advantage to White but i think that the positio is equal.

Cox believes that the best move for Black is 8...Qe7! when he repeats a line given by Lautier: 9.Nd2 Ne4 10.Ndf3 b6 11.Bf4 Ba6 12.cxd5 cxd5 13.Rfc1 with white slightly better. I search in informant notes reveals that 10...b6?! is actually inaccurate and should be played only after white moves his knight on d3. So best is 10...Nd7! 11.Nd3 (11.Bf4 g5! 12.Nxd7 Bxd7 13.Bxd6 Nxd6!=) 11...b6! 12.Bf4
(12.Nfe5 Bxe5 13.Nxe5 Nxe5 14.dxe5 Bb7= or 13.dxe5 Bb7 14.f3 Nec5=) 
12...Bb7! 13.Bxd6 Qxd6 14.Nfe5 Nxe5 15.Nxe5 Nf6=

I was very dissapointed that this plan with Qc2 and Ne5 in this exact move order which demands by Black so great accurancy is not mentioned in the book.....

I would give 7,5 to 8 out of 10 to the book.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #17 - 06/25/09 at 20:53:30
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JonathanB wrote on 06/25/09 at 20:30:05:
Novosibirsk wrote on 06/24/09 at 17:15:17:
... Well it could work if the authors not had taken a tough stance against the little "Staunton boy"and with all the other mischievous children....


Thanks for posting that review.

Whether the line above is your work as translator or Ziegler's as original author - I have to say it really made me smile.  Very well put.  Smiley


It is my translation but I tried to translate it as "correct" as possible. Yeah he is an extremly good writer. I often laugh out loudly when reading his reviews.   
  

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