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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Best try against the Marshall? (Read 10493 times)
TonyRo
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #13 - 07/01/09 at 15:57:30
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Ah. I have to be honest. Given Black's score in this variation after 18...f4!, and just analyzing for a bit and looking at the position, I doubt this variation even close to refutes this line. I'd play the Marshall if I got this variation every game.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #12 - 07/01/09 at 14:48:48
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No, we dont' know the containts of these lectures. It is only the material the club has put on their homepage.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #11 - 07/01/09 at 14:23:14
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Of course, he makes no mention of the best and most popular move, 18...Bf4!
  
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #10 - 07/01/09 at 10:21:40
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GM Skembris has given a series of lectures in a club in my hometown and  in the site of this club they have put an analysed game after these lectures. This is the game with their analysis



Geramoutsos,Georgios (1355) - Aggelis,Nikolaos (2045-2232)

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Be7 7.Re1 0-0 8.c3 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Nxe5 Nxe5 11.Rxe5 c6 12.d4 Bd6 13.Re1 Qh4 14.g3 Qh3 15.Bxd5 cxd5 16.Qf3 Bf5 17.Qxd5 Rae8 18.Bd2 Qg4 19.f3

[19.Na3!? Bxa3 20.f3 Be6 21.fxg4 Bxd5 22.bxa3 +/=; 19.Qxd6? Rxe1+ 20.Bxe1 Qd1 21.Qe5 Bd7 -+]

19...Qg6 20.Na3 Bxg3 21.hxg3 Qxg3+ 22.Kh1 Bh3 ΔΙΑΓΡΑΜΜΑ 23.Qg5

[23.Rg1?? Qh4 -+]

23...Qxf3+

[23...Qf2!? 24.Rxe8 Rxe8 25.Bf4 Qxf3+ (25...Qxb2 26.Rg1 g6 27.Qf6 +-) 26.Kg1 h5 27.Qg3 Qxg3+ 28.Bxg3 Re2 ∞]

24.Kh2 Bg4 25.Qf4 Qh3+ 26.Kg1 Bf3 27.Qh2 Qg4+ 28.Kf2 Qf5+-

[28...Bc6 29.Qg3 Qf5+ 30.Kg1 ±]

29.Qf4 Qd3 30.Qxf3 Qxd2+ 31.Re2 Rxe2+ 32.Qxe2 Qf4+ 33.Qf3

[33.Ke1 h5 34.Nc2 h4 35.Kd1 a5 36.Ne3 +-]

33...Qh2+ 34.Qg2 Qf4+ 35.Qf3

[35.Ke2 Re8+ 36.Kd3 Re3+ 37.Kc2 Rf3 38.Re1 h5 39.Qd2 ±]

35...Qh2+ 36.Qg2 Qf4+ ½-½   

GM Skembreis considers this line as almost a refutation of the Marshal. I don;t have any opinion because this is not a part of my repertoire with either white or black.
  
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Keano
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #9 - 06/29/09 at 14:29:46
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TN wrote on 06/29/09 at 10:03:05:
Forgive my ignorance of Marshall theory, but is 12.Bd5 cd5 13.d4 Bd6 14.Re3 a good try for an advantage? According to my database White scores 57% and a number of GM's have tried it in individual games, although the drawing margin of 43% may render this line an unsuitable choice for the amateur.


This is the Kevitz - what I used to play when I was a junior. Surprised by those statistics, but anyway I gave it up because the line is basically harmless - the main line is a forced draw, and even in various endgames (if White is lucky enough to get there) the 2 bishops usually caused enough problems to defend. Having said all that, its worth a punt...
  
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #8 - 06/29/09 at 10:59:51
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From my own expierence with the Marshall:
Whenever Black is allowed to play f5-f4 things get critical and White has to be very careful. Mostly White avoids this scenario by playing f2-f4 himself.

The main line (d4, Be3....) usually leads to an interesting position after move 19 from Black - a tabiya where White has a choice of moves. I mostly go for this tabiya (which can hardly be avoided from Black) and then let Black prove that he is able to play a "compensation" position - if there is no direct attack against the white king, a lot of Black players cannot hold the position and fail. I consider the Marshall as a "Drawing Weapon" within higher rated players who are able to play these kind of positions.
  
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TN
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #7 - 06/29/09 at 10:03:05
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Forgive my ignorance of Marshall theory, but is 12.Bd5 cd5 13.d4 Bd6 14.Re3 a good try for an advantage? According to my database White scores 57% and a number of GM's have tried it in individual games, although the drawing margin of 43% may render this line an unsuitable choice for the amateur.

8.h3 and 8.a4 are both interesting Anti-Marshalls that aren't as theoretical. I haven't kept up the theory, so I don't know the current state of these lines, but I assume that Black should equalise with best play.

1.d4 is a good Anti-Marshall as well Wink
  

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micawber
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #6 - 06/29/09 at 09:43:59
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A note on Smith-Mackingtosh, 2006 (for game score see above)
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21.Ne5, Bxe5
22.Rxe5,

Note that White has covered all approaches of the Black Queen to the h-file.
22........., fxg3
23.hxg3!    
 
 (This was an important novelty; Anand played 23.fxg3 here in 1999 against Adams. The difference will soon be clear)
23.............., Bg4        
24.Qe1
(I think that White can maintain an edge with 24.Qf1! protecting d3)
24...............,   Bf3
In Anand-Adams (after 23.fxg3) Adams played Bh3 threatening Rf1+ thx to the open f-file.
Interestingly Anand played 20.Ne4 iso 20.Nf3 in two games the next year (2000 against Adams in Dortmund and Khalifman in Dehli),
As it seems unlikely he didnt analyse hxg3 after the game, he must
have found something he didnt like (while Adams who was ready to repeat the game must have found something against hxg3 as well)


25. Ra7!

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This is the critical position
Note that Black can't take on d3:
25.....Qxd3 26.Rg5!,g6 27.Qe6+ wins at once.

So black must do something about the threat 26.Rg5 anyway.

In the game Black chose:
25....., Ra8 26.Rxa8,Rxa8 27.Bd1! and white was a solid pawn up in the endgame. He converted the point showing excellent technique.

But I think Black can hold this position by going into an endgame in which the oposite bishops play an important role.
25....,Kh8! (freeing the knight on d5):
26.Bxd5,exd5
27.Qe3 ,........ (renewing the threat Rg5)
27......., h6
28.Ree7, Rbe8
29.Rxe8, Qxe8
30.Qxe8, Rxe8

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And I think that Black can draw without to much difficulty
Note that 31.Be3 (to avert a mate on e1) is answered by d4! 32.xd4,Ra8 exchanging into a drawn opposite bishop endgame.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #5 - 06/29/09 at 02:13:08
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Thanks for the help. 20...f4 looks like the best move for Black, and has scored quite well. It looks rather dangerous!  Shocked
  
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #4 - 06/29/09 at 01:52:31
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You might take a look at Milos-Egger, Sao Paulo 1993 as recommended by IM Van Delft. 20...h6 is an improvement.
  

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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #3 - 06/29/09 at 01:32:15
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That's the one.  I had hoped to get a chance to practice 9... e4 this weekend, but the opportunity never arrived
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #2 - 06/29/09 at 01:24:23
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Hi Roger,

I've just started to delve into all of the Marshall lines, and I'm unfamiliar with the Steiner Gambit? Is it 9...e4?
  
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Roger Williamson
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Re: Best try against the Marshall?
Reply #1 - 06/29/09 at 00:59:52
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Tony

What do you have against the Steiner gambit?  I ask on behalf of Micawber (thanks for the response on the Pavlovic thread btw) and the rest of us lesser serious players.
  
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TonyRo
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Best try against the Marshall?
06/28/09 at 22:33:05
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Hello all,

I've been working on a Ruy Lopez Repertoire for a while, and I've moved on to the Marshall, but I'm having a hard time finding anything (surprising, I know). I've been looking at 12. d3!? and I quite like the look of:

12...Qh4 13. g3 Qh3 14. Re4 Qf5 15. Nd2 Qg6 16. Re1 f5 17. a4 Rb8 18. axb5 axb5 19. Nf3 as in Smith - Mackintosh, where the legendary CCGM White kept his pawn and simplified nicely, God rest his soul. However, what do people play against 15...Nf6? Also, are there any improvements along the way? What do other people play against the Marshall to try for an edge? Thanks!  Grin
  
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