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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult? (Read 17684 times)
Eclectico
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #30 - 09/28/09 at 04:58:57
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Many thanks to all those who responded.  I have begun playing the Open spanish using the berlin move order.  This seems to be a great fit for my repertoire... kind of like the 2 knights vs. the italian.  If white plays inferior lines black gets easy equality after a few tactical nuances, and if white plays the critical response (transposing to the open spanish), black gets a more imbalanced game (like the morphy 2 knights) than the quiet lines of the closed lopez.

I trust the comments of Markovich (and others) than if white deviates on moves 5 or 6, black's game is easier than the main lines of the open spanish.  However, it seems impossible to find any literature to guide the black player in the supposedly less critical lines.  I'll make another post in this forum to address these specifically.

Thanks again!
  
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Jormechea
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #29 - 07/28/09 at 15:30:48
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Holbox wrote on 07/02/09 at 08:20:17:
Quote:
I prefer stark imbalances (unclear) to drawish equality.


The Old Steinitz Defense can be your never ending weapon. Try it!!



I think the modern Steinitz with g6 is interesting. I know you said you havent had luck with these types of setups lasting you a life time but my chess coach who has played chess for more than 40 years has consistently stuck with his opening set ups and is now close to 2000.

Its a flexible system and I believe that if you stick with something long enough you will be a lot more comfortable than any of your opponents. If you know your line inside and out then you have the better chance of taking advantage of your opponents mistakes!
  
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TN
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #28 - 07/08/09 at 00:05:39
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My recommendation would be to either play the Berlin Wall, using Cox's book as your reference, or follow Davies's 1.e4 e5 repertoire, but using the two Gajewski variations (9...Rb8 and especially 9...Na5 10.Bc2 d5). Very few <2000 players have seen the line, and none of those have a booked-up response to it.
  

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dfan
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #27 - 07/07/09 at 18:51:50
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I'm 1800 and felt like Cox's Berlin book was pitched at a significantly stronger player than me.
  
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JonathanB
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #26 - 07/07/09 at 17:35:58
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TalJechin wrote on 07/06/09 at 07:22:43:
For practical reasons - i.e. the popularity of the Exchange variation below the IM-level - I'd suggest the Berlin.

Cox' book on it is an excellent effort ....


Got to agree with you about Cox's excellent book on the Berlin.

I'd also say this about the Berlin (based on my practical experience with it against the kind of opposition mentioned in this thread)

1.  You'll almost never get a Wall against this strength of opposition.  most people play 5. Re1 not 5. d4.  Re1 is very comfortable for Black.

2. As said above the Wall itself is not drawish anyway.


If not the Berlin - which many won't favour because of the potential for the early queen exchange - I found the Zaitsev fairly easy to understand and played it for many years.

Essentially, it seems to me, this is because you can boil the opening down to "attack e4" ... Knight on f6, Bishop to b7, Rook to e8 and get the other bish out the way, play ... exd4 where necessary.

No idea what the theoretical status of it is now but that won't matter for the strenghth of opposition mentioned in the thread.  Also - I found nobody ever takes the forced draw so no need to worry about that.
  

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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #25 - 07/07/09 at 15:57:14
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Maybe you should do everyone a favor and do a reunion tour! The Qd3 line is Khalifman's choice if I remember correctly?
  
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #24 - 07/07/09 at 15:38:15
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TonyRo wrote on 07/07/09 at 15:30:29:
I remember quite a while ago (when I was a teenager...given that I've played through my BS and MS degrees, it seems like forever ago...I can only imagine what people who've played decades think about their early chess) when I played this line I thought this page was indespensable, so now I get to thank you in person. Thanks!

http://correspondencechess.com/campbell/hard/h990517.htm

It's from 1999, so you might want to check out all the lines with a database and a number cruncher to make sure these lines still work. I can't imagine the theory of the Classical Ruy Lopez has advanced too far.


You're welcome.  But no, my notes have been totally revised since writing that.  One of the newer ideas is a White's early Qd3 in the c3 line, but Black appears to be OK there as well.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #23 - 07/07/09 at 15:30:29
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I remember quite a while ago (when I was a teenager...given that I've played through my BS and MS degrees, it seems like forever ago...I can only imagine what people who've played decades think about their early chess) when I played this line I thought this page was indespensable, so now I get to thank you in person. Thanks!

http://correspondencechess.com/campbell/hard/h990517.htm

It's from 1999, so you might want to check out all the lines with a database and a number cruncher to make sure these lines still work. I can't imagine the theory of the Classical Ruy Lopez has advanced too far.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #22 - 07/07/09 at 15:19:21
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Schaakhamster wrote on 07/07/09 at 13:08:42:
Markovich wrote on 07/07/09 at 12:23:47:
One defense not mentioned so far is 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5.  This is sound, in my opinion, and quite serviceable.


I do find Nxe5 a bit tricky for black.


It's a good try for White, but I think Black is O.K.  Unfortunately I am not at liberty to share my specific ideas since this defense is relied upon, with good success I might add, by a talented and ambitious former student of mine.
  

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Schaakhamster
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #21 - 07/07/09 at 13:08:42
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Markovich wrote on 07/07/09 at 12:23:47:
One defense not mentioned so far is 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5.  This is sound, in my opinion, and quite serviceable.


I do find Nxe5 a bit tricky for black.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #20 - 07/07/09 at 12:23:47
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One defense not mentioned so far is 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5.  This is sound, in my opinion, and quite serviceable.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #19 - 07/06/09 at 10:58:09
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[quote]Que? Why do you assume I'm talking about a non-Wall Berlin??
[/quote]

Probably merely because in Reply 13, where you speak of "several set-ups", you don't mention the Wall specifically.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #18 - 07/06/09 at 10:31:49
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[quote author=nmga link=1246508743/15#17 date=1246872157]Interesting discussion. Taljechin, I'd be interested in knowing which [i]non-[/i]'Wall' Berlin set-ups you/Cox consider attractive for Black. For example, what is the status of 7 ...Ne4!? these days?
[/quote]

Que? Why do you assume I'm talking about a non-Wall Berlin??


[quote]There is certainly something to be said for the Berlin but avoiding the exchange variation shouldn't be its main appeal.[/quote]

Well, it may not be the main appeal, but it's certainly a big perk!
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #17 - 07/06/09 at 09:22:37
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Interesting discussion. Taljechin, I'd be interested in knowing which [i]non-[/i]'Wall' Berlin set-ups you/Cox consider attractive for Black. For example, what is the status of 7 ...Ne4!? these days?

Talking of avoiding the Exchange Variation, I'd like to suggest 3 ...Nge7, followed by ...a6 and ...g6. In my experience this can be great at lower (i.e. my!) levels. You might find these threads of interest

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1141784971/12#12

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1156808757/0#0

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1207351628/0#0

though only the first of them took off. I've an improvement for Black which I can dig out if anyone's interested.
  
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Schaakhamster
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Re: Best Lopez Defense for an 1800 adult?
Reply #16 - 07/06/09 at 09:11:16
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TalJechin wrote on 07/06/09 at 08:46:23:
Schaakhamster wrote on 07/06/09 at 07:55:42:
At the 1800 level I don't get why one should be afraid of the exchange variation. It gives a full midllegame where black can outplay his opponent and endgame-skills are very poor at this level (which is my level).


Well, for exploiting poor endgame skills I still think the Berlin ending is much easier for black, while the Exchange imo is easier for white, and at this level white is usually very well booked-up for that ending as there are plenty of repertoire books advocating the Exchange for white...



I'm not going to dispute the value of the Berlin. I do feel it is an opening which will be either a hit or a miss for someone.

Quote:
Besides, in case white plays 4.Bxc6 I'd rather have Nf6 in than a6. In fact the Ruy is probably the only opening where black 'is supposed to' spend a tempo on encouraging white to double his pawns.


okay, are you serious? We are talking about the dreaded Ruy Lopez Bishop? There is certainly something to be said for the Berlin but avoiding the exchange variation shouldn't be its main appeal.


  
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