Many thanks to all those who responded.  I have begun playing the Open spanish using the berlin move order.  This seems to be a great fit for my repertoire... kind of like the 2 knights vs. the italian.  If white plays inferior lines black gets easy equality after a few tactical nuances, and if white plays the critical response (transposing to the open spanish), black gets a more imbalanced game (like the morphy 2 knights) than the quiet lines of the closed lopez.

I trust the comments of Markovich (and others) than if white deviates on moves 5 or 6, black's game is easier than the main lines of the open spanish.  However, it seems impossible to find any literature to guide the black player in the supposedly less critical lines.  I'll make another post in this forum to address these specifically.

Thanks again!

My recommendation would be to either play the Berlin Wall, using Cox's book as your reference, or follow Davies's 1.e4 e5 repertoire, but using the two Gajewski variations (9...Rb8 and especially 9...Na5 10.Bc2 d5). Very few <2000 players have seen the line, and none of those have a booked-up response to it.

TalJechin wrote on 07/06/09 at 07:22:43:


Got to agree with you about Cox's excellent book on the Berlin.

I'd also say this about the Berlin (based on my practical experience with it against the kind of opposition mentioned in this thread)

1.  You'll almost never get a Wall against this strength of opposition.  most people play 5. Re1 not 5. d4.  Re1 is very comfortable for Black.

2. As said above the Wall itself is not drawish anyway.


If not the Berlin - which many won't favour because of the potential for the early queen exchange - I found the Zaitsev fairly easy to understand and played it for many years.

Essentially, it seems to me, this is because you can boil the opening down to "attack e4" ... Knight on f6, Bishop to b7, Rook to e8 and get the other bish out the way, play ... exd4 where necessary.

No idea what the theoretical status of it is now but that won't matter for the strenghth of opposition mentioned in the thread.  Also - I found nobody ever takes the forced draw so no need to worry about that.

TonyRo wrote on 07/07/09 at 15:30:29:


You're welcome.  But no, my notes have been totally revised since writing that.  One of the newer ideas is a White's early Qd3 in the c3 line, but Black appears to be OK there as well.

Schaakhamster wrote on 07/07/09 at 13:08:42:


It's a good try for White, but I think Black is O.K.  Unfortunately I am not at liberty to share my specific ideas since this defense is relied upon, with good success I might add, by a talented and ambitious former student of mine.

One defense not mentioned so far is 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5.  This is sound, in my opinion, and quite serviceable.

[quote author=nmga link=1246508743/15#17 date=1246872157]Interesting discussion. Taljechin, I'd be interested in knowing which [i]non-[/i]'Wall' Berlin set-ups you/Cox consider attractive for Black. For example, what is the status of 7 ...Ne4!? these days?
[/quote]

Que? Why do you assume I'm talking about a non-Wall Berlin??


[quote]There is certainly something to be said for the Berlin but avoiding the exchange variation shouldn't be its main appeal.[/quote]

Well, it may not be the main appeal, but it's certainly a big perk!

TalJechin wrote on 07/06/09 at 08:46:23:



I'm not going to dispute the value of the Berlin. I do feel it is an opening which will be either a hit or a miss for someone.

Quote:


okay, are you serious? We are talking about the dreaded Ruy Lopez Bishop? There is certainly something to be said for the Berlin but avoiding the exchange variation shouldn't be its main appeal.

At the 1800 level I don't get why one should be afraid of the exchange variation. It gives a full midllegame where black can outplay his opponent and endgame-skills are very poor at this level (which is my level).

The closed lopez is in my opinion an excellent choice. Some of the lesser played variations like the Karpov (Nd7) and Smyslov (h6) are also fully playable. And within the Chigorin there is a lot of choice.

Added benefit is that if one variation should come under pressure from a theoretical viewpoint or you would like some change an other variation is easily added.   

Agree with Willempie. 

Chigorin with ..Rd8 tends to give good play at the 1800 level.  Good coverage in Shereshevsky's Soviet Chess Conveyer and the Flear book on the Closed Ruy Lopez.

I also like the Bisguier lines with ..Bd7 and ..cd4.  Breyer also a decent choice.

@Willempie: what about the Open Ruy???
Thanks,
Zatara

I agree that the Open would be a good choice for this 1800-level player.  Theoretically the lines of most concern to me would be 9.Nbd2 and 9.Be3, but I suppose that Black is doing well enough there.

It is actually quite hard to recommend an opening at times because you do really need to know what the persons specific personal chess philosophy is.
By this I mean what sort of position do you prefer and feel comfortable with ( and this is distinct from what is sound or even playable with). I myself mainly use two forms of the lopez as Black.
1st - The Open Defense. An old book if you can get it is 'Spanish: Open' by Kevin O"Connell, published by Batsford in 1978. An excellent tome and you can build up from them.
2nd - Alapin Defense 3...Bb4!? and I play this largely for a couple of reasons. One, is that most people (a good 90%) don't know the theory and try refute it by force. Two, it provides good endgame prospects and three, people think your mad for screwing your bishop to b4 so early....and before anyone dismisses this suggestion out of hand, read 'Die Aplain-Variante in der Spanischen Eroffnung by Ebhard Lach', published by Schaverlag Kania in 1995
Thanks
HTH

Someone should really tell Radjabov that the Schliemann doesn't seem sound enough... look like he's being plain silly.

And the recent book that's just been written on the Schliemann... I bet the author would feel really stupid if he'd realised the opening was unsound. 

If you find the positions in the Schliemann to your taste, stick with it. Not to crush your aspirations but the likelihood is that 2200 will be your ceiling, and I've never met a 2200 or below who can refute an opening that the super-GMs can't. The schliemann will do you just fine in the amateur levels.

"Play 1.e4 e5" - Chigorin, Keres variation (early Nd7).

- Davies doesn't advocate the classical Keres approach but the interpretation with exd4 which GM Graf used to champion. There were some hig-profile games with it but shortly after "Play 1. e4 e5" theory moved away from it. I have been told by stronger and wiser players that this approach is a bit un-Ruy Lopezish when compared to more classical lines. Added bonus: he also covers all other e4 e5 lines with a lot of sensible repertoire choices.

"Fighting the Spanish" - Marshall gambit

Well the Marshall is the Marshall: there is a fair amount of theory, unwary white players can be caught out and on the highest level it seems to be primarly used as drawing weapon. You should also be prepared for the anti-Marshalls.  Only book of the 3 I don't own or did owned so no idea how good the book is.

"The Ruy Lopez: A Guide for Black" - Zaitsev Variation

Good book, sharp variation. Very ambitious but not without dangers for black. You'll need to learn the theory and keep up with it. They also offer a backup-variation with Qd7 which is a side-line. Lost it when I moved which is a pity.

"A Spanish Repertoire for Black" - Rubenstein or Petrosian system

I'm looking at this book for the moment. Very well written and a top class author. Within the Chigorin variation the cxd4 variations are more popular but the explanation is very good. As most Chigorin variations are closely linked I think a lot of the material will also help you with other systems.

You might want to take a look a the older RL books by Flear for more diversity (ah the times when an author could attempt to cover all closed variations in one book  of a mere 175 pages).

I need help picking a Lopez defense to last me the rest of my chess days.  I am a 35 year old 1800 who has been playing about 5 years.  I have only an average memory, but some time for study and aspirations of making master one day.  I have some experience with the Schliemann and the fianchetto defenses.  Neither seem sound enough to last me a life time.  

I am comfortable with gambits, but am leaning away from the chaotic stuff.  I prefer stark imbalances (unclear) to drawish equality.  My current repertoire includes the two knights defense, but I decline the danish, goring and king's gambit with an early d5.  I also play the nimzo-indian, ragozin, and 4 knights english with e5.

Which of these repertoire books is likely the best fit with my other defenses?
"Play 1.e4 e5" - Chigorin, Keres variation (early Nd7).
"Fighting the Spanish" - Marshall gambit
"The Ruy Lopez: A Guide for Black" - Zaitsev Variation
"A Spanish Repertoire for Black" - Rubenstein or Petrosian system