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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe (Read 27113 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #13 - 07/06/09 at 23:58:34
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This is all very well, but 6...Qe7? 7.Nb5! is a silly mistake, which Fritz 10 recognises in about one second.  Better is 6...Bb4 although White maintains some advantage after 7.Bd2 0-0 8.0-0-0.  Black will probably regain the pawn on e5 but White's attacking chances on the kingside should be very dangerous due to the lead in development.

As for (5.Bf4 g5 6.Bg3 Bg7) 7.e3 Ng6 8.Qd5, it does look like curtains for Black I'm afraid.  I looked at 6...Nf5 as a possible improvement, but then 7.Nd5 (threatening 8.e6) is very strong.  Similarly 6...Ng6 7.Nd5.
  
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TN
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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #12 - 07/06/09 at 21:56:07
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According to Fritz 6, my beloved chess computer, White is clearly better after 5.e4 Ng6 6.Qd5 Qe7 7.Nb5. Now I will be able to play the Zilbermints Gambit like a computer.

For what it's worth, Fritz 6 claims '0.62' after 3...Qe7.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #11 - 07/06/09 at 20:54:51
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Gambit wrote on 07/06/09 at 20:05:08:
TonyRo wrote on 07/06/09 at 17:26:49:
Incorrect. The positions do transpose, but unfortunately for your cause the color to move doesn't. I get 7. e3 for free, which pretty much changes the evaluation from ~= to +/- or +-. I'd love to play a game over the forum Lev, or through PM's if you'd like to dispute the evaluation. At least respond to Craig's analysis and delve into your super secret files.


So you get 7 e3 for free, big deal. So what? I am sure improvements exist for Black. How about 7...Ng6 ? Black can preserve ...g4 for later.
As for delving into my files, I will do that. There should be some games with this line, as well as 4 Nc3 < 4...h6.

[Match challenge redacted by Markovich.  Please message your match challenges privately.]


So what if I get 7. e3 for free!? It's a free move! If I said I'd give you 1. e4 and 2. d4 for free, you'd say that's an improvement right? 

After 7...Ng6 8. Qd5! looks quite a bit worse. 8...Qe7 would be met by 9. Nd5, and 8...0-0 9. 0-0-0 g4 10. Nd4 Ngxe5 11. Nf5 looks disasterous.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #10 - 07/06/09 at 20:35:05
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Would those wishing to issue match challenges please do so by private correspondence?  These are essentially off-topic and they amount to chest-puffing.

Also, could we please keep the mockery to a minimum?  I am happy to see so much actual chess analysis here; unhappy to see so much mockery of the proponent of the many Zilbermints gambits (which I admit I have engaged in myself from time to time).
  

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Gambit
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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #9 - 07/06/09 at 20:05:08
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TonyRo wrote on 07/06/09 at 17:26:49:
Incorrect. The positions do transpose, but unfortunately for your cause the color to move doesn't. I get 7. e3 for free, which pretty much changes the evaluation from ~= to +/- or +-. I'd love to play a game over the forum Lev, or through PM's if you'd like to dispute the evaluation. At least respond to Craig's analysis and delve into your super secret files.


So you get 7 e3 for free, big deal. So what? I am sure improvements exist for Black. How about 7...Ng6 ? Black can preserve ...g4 for later.
As for delving into my files, I will do that. There should be some games with this line, as well as 4 Nc3 < 4...h6.

[Match challenge redacted by Markovich.  Please message your match challenges privately.]
  
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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #8 - 07/06/09 at 18:30:24
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After 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Ne7 perhaps just 3.Nf3 followed by 4.Nc3.  I doubt Black has better than to go into the main line.

2...Nc6 3.Nf3 Nge7 4.Nc3 h6 5.Bf4 g5 6.Bg3 Bg7 7.e3 g4 8.Nd4 Nxe5 9.Bxe5 Bxe5 10.Qxg4 appears to leave White a pawn up for nothing.   Therefore I agree that 7...Nf5 8.Qd5 is critical.  Taking the analysis further, I'm not convinced by 8...d6 9.Bb5 0-0 10.Bxc6 Be6 11.Qb5 bxc6 12.Qxc6 Nxg3 13.hxg3 dxe5.  White should have an edge in this position due to the extra pawn, but Black has plenty of open lines and freer piece play as well as the bishop pair.  An assessment of "+=" seems fair IMHO. 

Therefore White should have a closer look at 9.0-0-0.  After 9...Nxg3 10.hxg3 Nxe5 11.Nxe5 Bxe5 12.f4 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Qf6 14.Bb5+, 14...Ke7 looks a slight improvement, 15.fxg5 Qxc3 ~/+=.  So I prefer 12.Qe4, preventing the exchange on c3.  Now the f-pawn push is a real threat.  12...f5 (12...g4 13.f4 gxf3 14.gxf3 with the awkward threat of 15.f4) 13.Qb4 and White has a nice advantage in view of the weakened black kingside and better development.

It is probably easier, though, just to fall back upon 8.Bc4 or 8.Qd3, guaranteeing a tidy and safe advantage.  For instance 8.Qd3 Nxg3 9.hxg3 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 Bxe5 11.0-0-0 and White is better due to the lead in development.   In either case, in my opinion, White's advantage lies somewhere between += and +/-.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #7 - 07/06/09 at 17:26:49
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Incorrect. The positions do transpose, but unfortunately for your cause the color to move doesn't. I get 7. e3 for free, which pretty much changes the evaluation from ~= to +/- or +-. 

[Match challenge redacted by Markovich.  Please message your match challenges privately.]

At least respond to Craig's analysis and delve into your super secret files.
« Last Edit: 07/06/09 at 20:30:58 by Markovich »  
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Gambit
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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #6 - 07/06/09 at 16:49:50
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TicklyTim? A. Patzer - B.Ginner? What are you talking about?

[Insulting characterization redacted by Markovich.]

The Wigglesworth Defense is (after 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7) is 4 Bg5

Now after 4...h6 5 Bh4 g5 6 Bg3 Bg7 

Alternative: 6...Nf5, the Stadelman Attack, named for Samuel Leigh Stadelman who first analyzed it.

                         6...Ng6 with a later ...Bg7


7 Nc3 transposes to the line you give after 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 Nc3 h6

As for the line 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Ne7 is not a good idea. White might play 3 f4 protecting the e4-pawn. This is why 2...Nc6 is better, seeing how it develops the Nb8 with tempo.
« Last Edit: 07/06/09 at 20:32:12 by Markovich »  
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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #5 - 07/06/09 at 15:14:29
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CraigEvans wrote on 07/06/09 at 14:22:49:
B.Ginner actually suggested this in his notes to the game, and suggested the crazy gambit line 4.b4 axb4 5.c3!? with some compensation. As for the name, you've got it.  Wink


I was thinking that the TicklyTim-Evans sub-gambit-counterattack variation-system-gambit sacrificed a pawn to gain the open a or b-files, but the new 5.c3!? is a stroke of genius!! To gain a tempo in developing the Knight to c3 AND have an open b-file. 
Fame at last!  Cheesy. Though I think if the 5.c3 proves a winner (as I'm sure it will), I should defer the naming of the line to B.Ginner.
  
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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #4 - 07/06/09 at 14:22:49
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B.Ginner actually suggested this in his notes to the game, and suggested the crazy gambit line 4.b4 axb4 5.c3!? with some compensation. As for the name, you've got it.  Wink
  

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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #3 - 07/06/09 at 14:03:27
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CraigEvans wrote on 07/06/09 at 12:18:36:
A very good question TN. I had to refer to my copy of "Die schachen-turd" (of which I own the only copy), which suggests 3.g4 Nbc6 4.b4!, the Evans sub-gambit-counterattack variation-system. In A. Patzer (1437) - B.Ginner (1522), black chose to sacrifice another pawn with 4...d6 5. exd6 Ng6!?, but did not obtain sufficient compensation after 6.h4.


What happens if black pre-empts the Evans sub-gambit-counterattack variation-system with 3...a5 the Anti-Evans sub-gambit-counterattack variation-system.
Does white play 4.b4 anyway? If this is any good (or not) how do I go about getting it to be called the TicklyTim-Evans sub-gambit-counterattack variation-system-gambit.  Huh
  
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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #2 - 07/06/09 at 12:18:36
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A very good question TN. I had to refer to my copy of "Die schachen-turd" (of which I own the only copy), which suggests 3.g4 Nbc6 4.b4!, the Evans sub-gambit-counterattack variation-system. In A. Patzer (1437) - B.Ginner (1522), black chose to sacrifice another pawn with 4...d6 5. exd6 Ng6!?, but did not obtain sufficient compensation after 6.h4.
  

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Re: Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
Reply #1 - 07/06/09 at 11:08:03
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What do you recommend against the Accelerated Zilbermints with 1.d4 e5 2.de5 Ne7?. According to my extensive analyses in almost completely unknown periodicals, Black gains tremendous compensation for the pawn. In the only game with this line (between a 1700 and 1650), Black missed a good opportunity to equalise.
  

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Englund/Zilbermints Gambit & Wigglesworth Defe
07/06/09 at 09:31:59
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For those who don't know this (i.e. everyone bar about 10 people in the world), this runs 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 Nge7.

Here we have the starting position of the Zilbermints Gambit (which, at least to my mind, falls as a sub-variation of the whole Englund Gambit complex, although I appreciate others reserve that moniker for Englund's 3...Qe7 only). The Wigglesworth is reached after 4.Bg5 h6 5.Bh4 g5 6.Bg3 Bg7.

Now, personally, I think that 4.Bg5 is giving black exactly what he wants, and after 7.e3 g4 8.Nd4 Nxe5 9.Bxe5 Bxe5, black is at least equal (9.Qxg4? c5! is clearly better for black). I much prefer Tony's original idea of 4.Nc3.

Now, firstly I have to point out an error by Lev, who states that Bucker recommends 4...h6, "which might transpose to the Wigglesworth after 5.Bf4 g5 6.Bg3 Bg7". Now, exactly how is this a transposition when white has the additional move Nc3? That has to change the assessment of the line completely I'm afraid - white has a strong developing move, removes the possible threat against b2 in some lines, and is a move closer to queenside castling.

So, as TonyRo suggests, te analogous 7.e3 here changes the assessment completely, from = to +/-. 

a) 7...g4 8.Nd4 Nxe5 9.Bxe5 Bxe5 10.Qxg4 +/- - White has the better pawn structure, no lack of development, good prospects for his last piece, and the ability to castle queenside. Black has isolated f- and h-pawns, will need to play another pawn move before he can develop his QB, and that means at least another three moves before he can look to castle Q-side (if he wishes to). 
b) 7...Nf5 8.Qd5!? looks strong to me - 8...Qe7 9.Qc4! prevents any Qb4 ideas, and also prevents sequences like 9...Nxg3 10.hxg3 Nxe5 due to 11.Qxc7 +/-. So, black may have to resort to something like 8...d6 instead, which just looks unnatural with the black bishop on g7 instead. 9.Bb5 looks a try here (though 9.O-O-O Nxg3 10.hxg3 Nxe5 11.Nxe5 Bxe5 12.f4! is an interesting try, claiming that white is so far ahead in development as to render the capture on c3 insignificant - 12...Bxc3 13.bxc3 Qf6 14.Bb5+! Kf8 15.fxg5! +/-), when 9....O-O 10.Bxc6 Be6 11.Qb5 bxc6 12.Qxc6 when black has pretty much nothing for his material, the bishop pair has little to bite on and I can't believe it's worth a pawn. If I'm wrong, however, then white has TonyRo's good alternatives in 8.Bc4 and 8.Qd3, both of which look better for white also. 8.Qd3 prevents the 8...d6 idea, but does allow black to acheive material equality with 8...Nxg3 9.hxg3 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 Bxe5 11.f4 Bg7 12.O-O-O - I personally think white is quite a bit better here, but this might be playable for black. 8.Bc4 prevents this recapturing idea (due to Bxf7+ motifs), but allows 8...g4 9.Nd4 Nxg3 10.hxg3 Nxe5, which is probably playable for black after lines such as 11.Bb3 d6 +/= - I've played these sorts of positions as black and I'm quite happy with them, so this wouldn't scare me at all. So, in my view at the moment, 8.Qd5 is the most testing move after 8...Nf5.
  

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