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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread (Read 100228 times)
Ametanoitos
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #44 - 07/25/09 at 13:14:08
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Hello! I tried to find something to add to the analysis but it seems that mr Buecker has done a good work and nothing to add from me! Maybe you'll wait for an idea to pop out of my head at the last moment!

I have a question to make if you could help me that concerns the Scotch gambit after 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4. I used to play here 4...Bb4 and after 5.c3 dxc3 6.bxc3 Qf6!? as Watson has recomended but i discovered that white has some interesting tries like 7.cxb4 or even 7.Bg5 when the situation gets highly unclear. By the way, Watson doesn't consider these two moves.

So, my question is: what do you recomend? 4...Bc5 5.c3 d6!? is an idea that several Hungarian GMs have used.

Also after 4...d6 and we have a position i think Marin has analysed in CBM 128 3.Bc4 d6!? but i haen't seen his analysis after 4.d4 cxd4 5.c3

Any help??????  Smiley
  
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linksspringer
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #43 - 07/23/09 at 11:49:48
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gewgaw wrote on 07/23/09 at 10:45:07:
Huh - very cooperative play by black, especially black´s bishoproute via b7. It seems I´ve to write more than once, that moves like b7b6 (or Ne4-d6 in other lines) should be avoided, due to the long term weakness on the c-file.


I know gewgaw, I read that. But in your own variation you play 14.Qd2 b6 and a later Bb7. I was offering 14.a4 as a way to counter that plan.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/23/09 at 11:04:01:
linksspringer must have read Horowitz' book "Point Count Chess": the value of your position is measured by counting the number of squares attacked by your pieces. The diagrammed position could have been taken from that work as an extreme example...

Grin
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #42 - 07/23/09 at 11:04:01
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linksspringer must have read Horowitz' book "Point Count Chess": the value of your position is measured by counting the number of squares attacked by your pieces. The diagrammed position could have been taken from that work as an extreme example...
  
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gewgaw
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #41 - 07/23/09 at 10:45:07
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linksspringer wrote on 07/23/09 at 09:41:48:
Thanks Stefan! When I was examining 10.Bc1 / 13.b4, I had in mind something like the following if Black would play the knight to d7 (via c5 or f6):
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4 7.Nbd2
Bxd2 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 O-O 11.O-O d6 12.Re1 Nc5 13.b4 Nd7)
15.a4 a5 (15...b6 16.a5) 16.b5 b6 17.Bb2 Bb7 18.Ra3 when I think that Black has a difficult defensive task.

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Huh - very cooperative play by black, especially black´s bishoproute via b7. It seems I´ve to write more than once, that moves like b7b6 (or Ne4-d6 in other lines) should be avoided, due to the long term weakness on the c-file.
  

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linksspringer
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #40 - 07/23/09 at 09:41:48
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Thanks Stefan! When I was examining 10.Bc1 / 13.b4, I had in mind something like the following if Black would play the knight to d7 (via c5 or f6):
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4 7.Nbd2
Bxd2 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 O-O 11.O-O d6 12.Re1 Nc5 13.b4 Nd7)
15.a4 a5 (15...b6 16.a5) 16.b5 b6 17.Bb2 Bb7 18.Ra3 when I think that Black has a difficult defensive task.

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #39 - 07/23/09 at 08:01:42
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gewgaw wrote on 07/21/09 at 08:40:04:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 d6 11.0–0 0–0 12.Re1 Nf6 [12...Nc5 Of course possible, but White has more chances for compensation after this move 13.b4 Nd7 14.Qd2 b6 [...] 15.Bb2 a5 16.a3 axb4 17.axb4 Rxa1 18.Rxa1 Bb7 19.Bb3 Re8 20.Rc1 Ne5 21.Nxe5 dxe5 22.Bxe5 Nxd5 23.Bxc7 Qe7 24.Bxd5 Bxd5 25.f3 b5 26.Bb6 Bc4=] [...]


gewgaw himself says that the side-line 12...Nc5 offers White "more chances for compensation [than 12...Nd7]". After studying 12...Nc5 for a while, I (a) can confirm that White has chances, but (b) don't see something decisive for White:

- in gewgaw's line 15.Bb2... I liked 20.h4 more (instead of 20.Rc1), e.g. 20...h6 21.Qe2 (21.h5 Nc8, White doesn't have much) 21...Ne5!

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22. Bxe5 (22. Nxe5 Nxd5 23.Qf3 dxe5 24.Rd1 Qxh4, White gets a bishop for three pawns, but Black seems to hold) 22...dxe5 (22...Nxd5 23. Qa2; 22...Ng6?? 23.Bf6 +-) 23.Qxe5 Kf8 24.Ba4 c6 25.dxc6 Bxc6 26.Rd1 Qb8 27.Bxc6 Nxc6 28.Qb5. White has a small plus.

- 15.a3!? a5 16.Rb1 has the advantage to keep more pieces on the board, which could be good for White who has more space: 16...axb4 17.axb4 b5 18.Bxb5 Bb7 19.Bb2 Nxd5 20.Nd4 Ne5 21.f4 c6 (or perhaps 21...Qf6!?) 22.Bf1 Ng6 23.f5 Nge7 24.Qg5 (b5) h6 25.Qg3 Nf6 26.Bc4

(a) 26...Nh5 27.Qh4 (27.Qg4 =) 27...Nf6 28.Re3 Ra4?! (28.Kh8 29.Rbe1 Neg8!) 29.Rg3 Kh8 30.Bxf7!

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30...Rxb4! (30...Rxf7? 31.Txg7! Rxg7 32.Qxf6 +-) 31.Rxg7 Nxf5 32.Qh3 Rxb2 33.Rxb2 Qa5 34.Qxf5 Qe1+ 35.Qf1 Qxf1+ 36.Kxf1 Ba6+ 37.Kg1 Kxg7 38.Ba2 =.

(b) 26...Kh8 27.Rbc1 d5 28.Bd3 Ra2 29.Bc3 Re8 (29...Ra3 30.Qf2) 30.Nf3 (30.Nb3 d4! 31.Nxd4 c5!, about =) 30...d4 31.Bc4 Nxf5 32.Qf4 Ra8 33.Bxf7 (33.Nxd4 Nd6 34.Rxe8+ Qxe8 35.Ne6 fxe6 36.Bxf6 Qg6 =) 33...Rxe1+ 34.Bxe1 Bc8 35.Rxc6 Bb7 36.Rc1 Bxf3 37.Qxf3 Rc8 38.Rxc8 Qxc8 39.Qf4 =/+=.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #38 - 07/23/09 at 07:17:14
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To detract your attention from a topic that I should rather not have mentioned, here is a youtube video showing Dmitry Chuprov (right), the GM who used 7.Nbd2 twice in his tournament practice, playing blitz. I feel this belongs in the chat and not in the main thread, since they don't play the Pomtow Attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEVYQuo0a5I
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #37 - 07/22/09 at 23:23:43
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Having spent too many hours on these boring positions, I can well understand your frustration. I found your C23, 13...Qf5, slightly less horrible, by the way, than C22, 13...Rc8 "14.b3 +=". After 14...0-0 15.Nxd4 Nxd4 16.Qxd4 Qxd4 17.cxd4 d5, White can hardly avoid to exchange all rooks on the open files, with an immediate draw. Alternatives like 13. c4 only have an experimental character and are not the kind of problems which you'd like to pose Black in a serious tournament game. - I'll publish the idea in my mag, when the move survives more PC checking (and maybe 1-2 tournament games). It's a bit unusual, but more fun to play than the lines above.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #36 - 07/22/09 at 22:19:26
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May be i must disappoint you, but i haven't found an advantage against 8...Qh5

Here is my summary:

9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6

A) 11.Bf6? Bxh2+!! -+ Karaklajic-Jovanovic, Palic 1996.

B) 11.h4 h6 12.Nxd6+ cxd6 13.Bf4 Qd5 Aleksic-Pavlovic, Becici 1993.

C) 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4 Qd5

     C1) 13.Ng5 0-0 14.Ne4 Rfd8! =+ with black advantage

     C2) 13.c3

           C21) 13...Kd7 (Nigel Davies gives this move a !) but i am not so sure after
                   14.Nxd4 Nxd4 15.cxd4 and then if 15...g5 16.Bd2!?

           C22) 13...Rc8 14.b3 +=

           C23) 13...Qf5!? is best in my opinion, e.g.
                 
                 a) 14.Bg3 dxc3 15.Qxd6 cxb2
                 b) 14.Bxd6 0-0-0 15.Nxd4 Rxd6
                 c) 14.Qd2 dxc3 15.bxc3 0-0
                 d) 14.cxd4 Qxf4 15.d5 Nd8 Black holds the position after 16.g3 Qb4 17.Ng5 h6 18.Nxf7 Nxf7.
                       Black can also try 14...0-0-0 or 14...0-0 with good counterplay.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #35 - 07/22/09 at 21:03:22
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Stefan,
have you any specific ideas against 8...Qh5?  That's the line that MNb and myself have often racked our brains over, re. how to avoid stale equality (the latest try for White is 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4 Qd5 13.Ng5 0-0 14.Ne4, but I don't know if you have other ideas).
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #34 - 07/22/09 at 20:18:51
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MNb wrote on 07/17/09 at 12:41:15:
CaptainFuture wrote on 07/16/09 at 11:14:45:
Hi all, Hi Stefan,

the main problem with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 is the move in the Two Knights 5...Nxe4. You have debated about 8...Qd8 and 8...Qh5. May be there are lines for white to get an advantage. But for 30 years i am searching for a reply against 8...Qa5. As has been pointed out Qa5 is the most played move. So we have to focus on this first.
[...]
...nothing is promising. The endings are all equal. Undecided
[...]
So what is your suggestion that gives white an edge?
with kind regards,
Robert


Ahoy Captain,
the reason that we don't debate 8...Qa5 is that the problem has been solved. As I'm at work you will have to wait a couple of hours, then I can look up the line.
There is one point though. Nobody claims an advantage, neither after 8...Qa5, nor after 8...Qd8 nor after 8...Qh5. The question is if White can avoid stale equality. [...].


Sorry - this reply comes late, since I took a short holiday. - Hi, Robert. I think I've found something for White (different from MNb's line above) which avoids said stale equality. It leads to unbalanced positions with mutual chances. Some friends agreed that it looked interesting. But I won't discuss it here, it's a line with surprise value which might gain me a few points.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #33 - 07/22/09 at 19:49:53
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Luzin wrote on 07/22/09 at 14:38:34:
Ok, the engines see compensation here, mainly because of the bishop pair i guess, but i don't! Unless i can see a way for Bc4 to prove himself useful, i will not grant white any "bishop pair bonus". [...]
If you compare this position with well known 7.Nc3 positions you will see that White's pressure succeeds most when he has got rid of the c4 bishop while black cannot develop his own on f5 but has to go for b6/Bb7...

play could continue 14. Qf3 Bg6 15.h4 h5 16.Bg5 f6 17. Bd2 Qd7 and if asked by his teenager son, White should not be able to explain why he is pawn down  Wink


Welcome in this thread, Luzin! With gewgaw claiming equality and linksspringer proposing the interesting 10.Bc1 for White, your contribution for Black is just what we needed here. - It could in fact be a critical question whether the black bishop can be developed safely to f5 or g6. But I find it amusing that you mention the passive role of the Bc4. Almost every white piece is stronger than its counterpart. OK, the Bc4 is temporarily guarding the pawn d5. But that pawn is important...

Fortunately I don't have to give detailed analyses to back a nomination. But the following line may be a hint that White has play for the pawn: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. 0-0 Nd2 10. Nd2 0-0 11. a3 Bd2 12. Bd2 d6 13. Re1 Bf5. So far Luzin. 14. Qb3 (instead of 14.Qf3, Luzin) 14...Rb8 15.Qe3 Nc8 16.Qf4 Nb6 17.Bb3 Qf6 18.Bc3 Qg6 19.Re3 f6 20.Rg3 Qh5 21.a4 (21.Bd1? Nxd5) 21...Bg6 22.a5 Nd7 23.Bd4 Rfe8 (23...b6 24.Bd1 Qf5 25.Qxf5 Bxf5 26.Rc3 +=) 24.Qc1 Rbc8 25.Bxa7 Bf7 26.h3 Bxd5 27.Qd2 Bxb3 28.Rxb3 b6 29.axb6 cxb6 30.Bxb6 and White is slightly better.  
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #32 - 07/22/09 at 14:38:34
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sorry gewgaw, your line is fine, but i think that if anything, it is actually White who needs an equalizing line in this system  Smiley

just grab the pawn and let white show us his stuff:


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. 0-0 Nd2 10. Nd2 0-0 11. a3

unfortunately white has to lose this tempo. I tried to make without this move, my most interesting effort being 11. Nb3 (denies another exchange, limits the Bb4 and heads for d4 to discourage the other bishop from developing naturally to f5) but black has the strong reply 11... Ng6 maintaining the options of Bd6 and Be7/Bf6

Some sample lines:
11.Nb3 Ng6
a)  12. a3
a1) 12... Bd6 may yield white enough counterplay to ... egualize, e.g.: 13.Nd4 Qf6 14. b4 a5 15. Bb2 ab4 (possibly not best but has fun) 16. ab4 Ra1 17. Ba1 (Qa1 fails due to 17...Nf4! 18. g3 Be5) ...b6 (Bb4 18. Ne6) 18. g3 (threatening Ne6) and now both Qg5 and Ne5 lead to complications but black seems to hold:
a1.1) 18... Qg5 19. Qc2 Bb7 20. Nf5 Ne7 21. Nd6 cd6 22. Qe4 Bd5 23. Bd5 Nd5 24. Rd1 Nf6 25. Qe7 Qh5 26. Qd6 Ne4 27. Qd7 Qe2 28. Qd4 f6 and black will draw easily with Qf3 and Ng5 to follow
a1.2) 18...Ne5 19. Be2 Re8 20.f4 Ng6 21. Ne6 Qe7 22. Ng7 Qe2 23. Ne8 Qe8 24. Re1 Qf8 25. f5 Bb4 26. fg6 fg6 27. Re3 (Rf1 does not work, 27... Qc5 28. Kg2 Bb7 and black wins) 27... Bc5 28. Bd4 Bb7 and this is at least equal for black.

a2) 12...Be7 looks stronger and simpler,e.g. 13. Be3 (13.Nd4 c5!) Re8 14. Re1 Bf6 15. Qd2 d6 16. Rac1 a6 17. Nd4 Nh4 18. Be2 (18. Bd3 Bh3) Nf5 =/+

b) 12. f4 this brutal attitude does not work either 12...Qf6 13. Be3 b6 [i was happy to lure Rybka into grabbing the pawn: 13...Qb2?! 14. Bd4 Bc3 15. Bc5 d6 (Re8 16. d6 and white is on top) 16. Rf2 Qa1 17. Na1 bc5 18. Nb3 Re8 19. Rf1 Bf5 20. Nc5 Rb8 21. d6 and white is better] 14. Bd4 (14. a3 Bd6 is better for black too) Qf5 15.Qf3 Bd6 16.g3 Bb7 and black's queen proves to be fine in f5, therefore black is just 1 pawn up

c) 12. Be3 may be best b6 13. Nd4 Bb7 14. Nf5 Qf6 15. Qc2 Ne7! (Ne5 16.Bd4 Bc5 17.Bc3 a5 18. Kh1 Bb4 19.Bd4 Bc5= )16. Ne7 Be7 but black still looks better


back to the "main line" 11. a3 Bd2 (natural and good IMO) 12. Bd2 d6 13. Re1 (Qb3 c5 also looks fine for black) ... Bf5
Ok, the engines see compensation here, mainly because of the bishop pair i guess, but i don't! Unless i can see a way for Bc4 to prove himself useful, i will not grant white any "bishop pair bonus". Even when black plays c5 (or c6) to relieve himself from pressure along the c file and white captures on c6, the white bishop does not become significantly active, while the mobile black center (pawns c6 and d6) looks fine.
If you compare this position with well known 7.Nc3 positions you will see that White's pressure succeeds most when he has got rid of the c4 bishop while black cannot develop his own on f5 but has to go for b6/Bb7...

play could continue 14. Qf3 Bg6 15.h4 h5 16.Bg5 f6 17. Bd2 Qd7 and if asked by his teenager son, White should not be able to explain why he is pawn down  Wink
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #31 - 07/21/09 at 11:48:35
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gewgaw wrote on 07/21/09 at 11:21:59:
linksspringer wrote on 07/21/09 at 09:25:26:
Thanks gewgaw, a lot to look at. Still going through your variations, but looking at your mainline:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 d6 11.O–O O–O 12.Re1 Nf6 13.b4 b5 14.Bb3 Bb7 15.Bg5 Nexd5 16.Bxd5 Bxd5 17.Bxf6 Bxf3 18.Bxd8 Bxd1 19.Bxc7
Did you consider 19.Be7 as well?


Smiley
You´re stubborn!
Maybe I need my other backup lines!
How about 15. ...Bxd5!?
15. Bg5 Bxd5 16. Bxf6 Bxb3 17.
Bxe7 Bxd1 18. Bxd8 Bxf3 19. Bxc7 Bd5 20. Bxd6 Rfe8 =


Grin There is so much to look at! Eg after your 15. Bg5 Bxd5 16. Bxf6 Bxb3, how about 17.axb3!? gxf6 18.Nd4 with very interesting compensation.
And in your 13/14...c6 backup lines both White and Black can make a lot of different choices, my head is spinning, will have a fresh look later  Cheesy
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #30 - 07/21/09 at 11:21:59
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linksspringer wrote on 07/21/09 at 09:25:26:
Thanks gewgaw, a lot to look at. Still going through your variations, but looking at your mainline:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 d6 11.O–O O–O 12.Re1 Nf6 13.b4 b5 14.Bb3 Bb7 15.Bg5 Nexd5 16.Bxd5 Bxd5 17.Bxf6 Bxf3 18.Bxd8 Bxd1 19.Bxc7
Did you consider 19.Be7 as well?


Smiley
You´re stubborn!
Maybe I need my other backup lines!
How about 15. ...Bxd5!?
15. Bg5 Bxd5 16. Bxf6 Bxb3 17.
Bxe7 Bxd1 18. Bxd8 Bxf3 19. Bxc7 Bd5 20. Bxd6 Rfe8 =
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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