Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player (Read 10957 times)
ham204
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 48
Joined: 09/15/09
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #21 - 09/30/09 at 09:12:25
Post Tools
erm, yes - amazon for some reason do not post to my country...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1770
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #20 - 09/29/09 at 15:34:09
Post Tools
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ham204
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 48
Joined: 09/15/09
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #19 - 09/29/09 at 09:00:28
Post Tools
that 2060 player is probably doing it the right way (although playing variations against his pc before trying them out in tournaments would save - not shave- points off his ELO). Sometimes playing otb and then checking with theory ends in one having a deeper understanding of the chosen defence.  Although many variations have been mentioned in this thread, I feel that it is better to stick to one variation and understand it deeply - pawn structure, placement of pieces, dynamism inherent in the position, the battle array - as chances are that your opponent would not have gone so deep into the position. When faced with defences such as the KID and GID, I prefer to take the game directly into the endgame and practice that at home. There was an old book by Mednis ('From the Opening into the Endgame') on such a repetoire which, while looking dry, certainly brings in the points as the opponent would really have no clue what to do! I mislaid mine - anyone knows if it is still in print or if there is a similar more updated book on the subject?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seth_Xoma
God Member
*****
Offline


FM with 2 IM Norms - (2381)

Posts: 558
Location: Lansing
Joined: 11/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #18 - 08/12/09 at 16:39:27
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 08/12/09 at 14:47:03:
Well you would have beaten that 2060 with just about anything, eh?


Probably anything other than the Exchange variation...that was the variation covered in the first 14 pages of his book.  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #17 - 08/12/09 at 14:47:03
Post Tools
Well you would have beaten that 2060 with just about anything, eh?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seth_Xoma
God Member
*****
Offline


FM with 2 IM Norms - (2381)

Posts: 558
Location: Lansing
Joined: 11/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #16 - 08/12/09 at 02:14:54
Post Tools
Just thought you'd all like to know I gave 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bf4 0-0 6.Rc1 a shot last tournament against a 2060 USCF player and won. I had looked at 6...dxc4 and 6...c5 but he played a move I had not looked at - which was 6...c6. Then after 7.e3 he surprised me again and took on c4. I got a very pleasant positional edge out of the opening. After talking to him, he admitted he hadn't gotten past page 14 of his book on the Gruenfeld!! It takes a mighty brave man to play such an opening knowing no theory!

Thanks again for all your help, everyone!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #15 - 07/26/09 at 07:33:37
Post Tools
The anti-Gruenfeld (recommended by Khalifman) and 7.Be3 (with or without Nf3) are by no means side lines.

If you are looking for a White repertoire, Khalifman's series is really recommended specially now that he is updating all the volumes (for example he will have Catalan instead of QGD in volume 5). Here is what he has to say about the new series:

The first edition of the "Opening for White according Kramnik" was realised in 2000-2004. In 2006 started a FULL renovation of the series. My analysis and recommendations significantly differ from the first edition in a number of variations. However, the bare bones of the series remained practically the same as a whole. There will be only one change of front � while the fifth volume of the first edition examined the Classical queen's gambit, the new edition will cover the Catalan. I have also altered the structure of openings in volume 2. In contrast to the first edition, I dare to advocate to meet 2...e6 by 3.g3. Is this move objectively better than 3.Nc3, we can argue about that forever. What is clear is that White does not wish to enter classical Queen's Gambit, the Ragozin Defence or the Vienna variation, since he must be well prepared to do that after 3.Nc3 d5. Instead, he invites his opponent to the ground of the Catalan Opening (3.g3 d5 4.d4), which has brought to Vladimir Kramnik numerous brilliant victories in the recent tournaments. My own personal bias and long-formed opinion that the Catalan suits best Kramnik's playing style could have made me choose this opening even for the first edition. Still I had to reckon back then with the fact that Kramnik played the Catalan very rarely in those years. Lately the situation has considerably changed. Today the ex-world champion is the leading protagonist of this opening. We can witness it at every tournament with his participation. That called for the above-mentioned restructuring of the second edition of the series. Chess Stars has published so far volumes 1a and 1b (to replace the old volume 1), and volume 2 (replacing the old volume 2). In 2009 volumes 3a and 3b (replacing the old volume 3) are bound to appear. At the same time I keep on working on the new volumes 4 and 5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seth_Xoma
God Member
*****
Offline


FM with 2 IM Norms - (2381)

Posts: 558
Location: Lansing
Joined: 11/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #14 - 07/26/09 at 04:44:15
Post Tools
F22 wrote on 07/26/09 at 03:52:36:
Seth_Xoma wrote on 07/22/09 at 16:18:45:
Against the Najdorf it's been 6.Bg5 and 6.Bc4 (with a Bg5 thrown in early).
Against the Caro it's normally been the largely theory-less 4.Nd2 in the Advanced variation.
Vs the French...well... I've tried the main lines and liked them in the Classical but haven't found anything I liked against the Winawer. Sometimes I played the KIA and got good results because I knew the resulting positions better than my opponents.
Vs the Pirc...Since I never play against this except online, the most consistently seen answer has been 4.h4, 5.h5 Nxh5 6.Rxh5  Roll Eyes I'd probably play 4.Bg5 in an otb game.
Vs 1...e5 Ruy Lopez, often a d3 system.


Well to be honest I am kind of puzzled here. You don't like to learn much theory but you play 6.Bg5 against Najdorf and the main lines against the classical French! I don't know what to tell you but the following comes to mind:

(1) English move order: 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 (otherwise 4.e4) as recommended by Khalifman in the "Opening for White according to Kramnik" volume 1A.
(2) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Bd2. I think Dreev plays this line.
(3) Look into 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.Be3 when White avoids playing Nf3.
(4) Switch back to 1.e4!

PS: If you played the advanced against Caro-Kann why did not you try it against the French?



My choice of 6.Bg5 against the Najdorf can be explained easily: I had Experts vs the Sicilian and played all the recommended lines for awhile.

I have fiddled with the Advanced vs the French in the past, but it felt like playing into what Black wanted. I don't feel comfortable with the early a3 lines, and playing g4 in the Kf1 lines seemed too weakening for too little gain. If all white players played the Advanced French, I'd probably play the defense myself.

I'm largely done with playing offbeat variations. I'm not afraid to put in the time to maintain a repertoire, but would still like to avoid lines like the Poisened Pawn. I've got my Black defenses all set...just need to get my white rep in order.

Currently I'm looking at Bf4 vs the Gruenfeld, as suggested earlier in this thread. I'll likely choose more than one option, and 5.Bd2 I have given a go over-the-board (a draw).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #13 - 07/26/09 at 03:52:36
Post Tools
Seth_Xoma wrote on 07/22/09 at 16:18:45:
Against the Najdorf it's been 6.Bg5 and 6.Bc4 (with a Bg5 thrown in early).
Against the Caro it's normally been the largely theory-less 4.Nd2 in the Advanced variation.
Vs the French...well... I've tried the main lines and liked them in the Classical but haven't found anything I liked against the Winawer. Sometimes I played the KIA and got good results because I knew the resulting positions better than my opponents.
Vs the Pirc...Since I never play against this except online, the most consistently seen answer has been 4.h4, 5.h5 Nxh5 6.Rxh5  Roll Eyes I'd probably play 4.Bg5 in an otb game.
Vs 1...e5 Ruy Lopez, often a d3 system.


Well to be honest I am kind of puzzled here. You don't like to learn much theory but you play 6.Bg5 against Najdorf and the main lines against the classical French! I don't know what to tell you but the following comes to mind:

(1) English move order: 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 (otherwise 4.e4) as recommended by Khalifman in the "Opening for White according to Kramnik" volume 1A.
(2) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Bd2. I think Dreev plays this line.
(3) Look into 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.Be3 when White avoids playing Nf3.
(4) Switch back to 1.e4!

PS: If you played the advanced against Caro-Kann why did not you try it against the French?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #12 - 07/23/09 at 09:26:23
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 07/20/09 at 18:33:17:
I'll check my notes concerning the 7...Be6 in the 5.Bf4 line when I get home (I'm out of town for a few days), but I think that White keeps an edge.



I'll be interested in that because i know that after 6.Rc1 dxc4 7.e4! is the main line with chances of a smalii edge. Some years ago, i played against a teamate of GM Arik Braun from Germany who was a specialist in this line for White. I tried to side step his preperation (i had no experience in this line at all although the GID was my main weapon) with a little line i saw in NCO 6.Rc1 c5!? 7.dxc5 Na6 (7...Be6 is a kind of main line also with good results for Black also) 8.cxd5 Nxc5 9.e3 Qb6 with a good position ("=" according to NCO) although i later managed to win from a totally lost position  Smiley.

So, i knew that 6.Rc1 can be countered effectivelly with bot 6...dxc4 and 6...c5 but maybe you can enlighten us!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seth_Xoma
God Member
*****
Offline


FM with 2 IM Norms - (2381)

Posts: 558
Location: Lansing
Joined: 11/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #11 - 07/22/09 at 16:18:45
Post Tools
F22 wrote on 07/18/09 at 19:11:01:
Seth_Xoma being an 1.e4 player is a broad category. If one knew what your repertoire was maybe one could make better suggestions. What did you play against the French, Caro-Kann or Najdorf for example?


Sorry for taking so long to respond.

I'm afraid I don't have much of a "stable" 1.e4 repertoire.

Against the Najdorf it's been 6.Bg5 and 6.Bc4 (with a Bg5 thrown in early).
Against the Caro it's normally been the largely theory-less 4.Nd2 in the Advanced variation.
Vs the French...well... I've tried the main lines and liked them in the Classical but haven't found anything I liked against the Winawer. Sometimes I played the KIA and got good results because I knew the resulting positions better than my opponents.
Vs the Pirc...Since I never play against this except online, the most consistently seen answer has been 4.h4, 5.h5 Nxh5 6.Rxh5  Roll Eyes I'd probably play 4.Bg5 in an otb game.
Vs 1...e5 Ruy Lopez, often a d3 system.

Never let anyone tell you you need a great opening repertoire to get to 2300 USCF  Cheesy
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2500
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #10 - 07/20/09 at 18:33:17
Post Tools
Yes, Kylemeister is correct; I meant 7...0-0?! 8.Be2! c5 when I wrote 7...Nc6.

To answer Nyctalop, 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7.Nf3 0-0?! 8.Be2! c5 is decidedly NOT back to the main line.  White can play 9.0-0 now, which is certainly better than moving the Queen's rook.  I don't want to go too deeply into this, because I've already pointed out where you can find information about this line.

I'll check my notes concerning the 7...Be6 in the 5.Bf4 line when I get home (I'm out of town for a few days), but I think that White keeps an edge.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4641
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #9 - 07/19/09 at 19:46:18
Post Tools
Well, I notice that ECO and NCO are in line with the view that 7...0-0 8. Be2 c5 is suboptimal for Black.  I'm going to guess that ErictheRed meant ...c5 when he was writing ...Nc6, and that he knows what the "book" answer to that Nf3/Bf4/Rc1 line is.

Somewhat oddly, several books I looked at only mention 9. Nxd4 after 6. Rc1 dc 7. e3 c5 8. Bxc4 cd (though it seems that for a few decades the knight recapture was considered very good for White).  

« Last Edit: 07/19/09 at 22:17:56 by kylemeister »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nyctalop
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 8
Joined: 07/13/09
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #8 - 07/19/09 at 16:48:25
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 07/19/09 at 01:37:12:
The variation that I have scored best with is 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7.Nf3, because most opponents actually now play 7...0-0?!, which is certainly dubious because White can play 8.Be2! instead of 8.Rb1.  There is some nice analysis on this in Yermolinsky's book The Road to Chess Improvement.  Basically, compare the position after 7.Nf3 0-0?! 8.Be2! to 7.Nf3 Nc6! 8.Be2?! and you'll see the difference.  Many fairly strong players (USCF 2200+) mess up this move order, maybe because it's not explained in many books that cater to the Black side???

Anyway when my opponents play 7.Nf3 Nc6 I play 8.Rb1 and I have decent practical results, but there is so much theory there that I can't keep up with it all.


8...c5 is back to the main line, I don't understand what you're getting at. And no decent Grunfeld player would play Nc6 in that variation without a prior c5.

ErictheRed wrote on 07/19/09 at 01:37:12:
One line that I think is quite promising for White is 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.d4 0-0 5.Bf4!? d5 6.Rc1!  I can't usually play this way because I play the Saemisch against the KID (so I don't want to commit the King's Knight to f3), but if I'm certain I'll face the Grunfeld I'll sometimes use this move order or something similar.  The main point is that one of Black's main ideas in similar positions, 6...c5 7.dxc5 Qa5?, is now a mistake because of 8.cxd5 Ne4 9.Be5!  If you put the Knight on f3 vs. the King's Indian and Benoni, I'd recommend giving this variation a try.  Another line you'll face a lot is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 d5 5.Bf4 0-0 6.Rc1! dxc4 7.e3 c5 8.Bxc4 cxd4 9.exd4 +/=, when you have the Black side of a QGD Tarrasch with two full extra tempi.  In my opinion, these 2 tempi are sufficient for an advantage.

Good luck...


The black defense to that your line runs something like this 6...dxc4 7.e3 Be6 (the point of Be6 is to delay the recapturing on the c4 pawn since d5 isn't available, and Bg4 wouldn't apply any pressure to d4 with the pawn on e3) 8. Ng5 Bd5 9.e4 h6 10.exd5 hxg5 11.Bxg5 Nxd5 12.Bxc4 Nb6 13.Bb3 Nc6 with a nagging pressure on d4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3151
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #7 - 07/19/09 at 08:42:39
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 07/19/09 at 01:37:12:
One line that I think is quite promising for White is 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.d4 0-0 5.Bf4!? d5 6.Rc1!  I can't usually play this way because I play the Saemisch against the KID (so I don't want to commit the King's Knight to f3), but if I'm certain I'll face the Grunfeld I'll sometimes use this move order or something similar.  The main point is that one of Black's main ideas in similar positions, 6...c5 7.dxc5 Qa5?, is now a mistake because of 8.cxd5 Ne4 9.Be5!  If you put the Knight on f3 vs. the King's Indian and Benoni, I'd recommend giving this variation a try.  Another line you'll face a lot is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 d5 5.Bf4 0-0 6.Rc1! dxc4 7.e3 c5 8.Bxc4 cxd4 9.exd4 +/=, when you have the Black side of a QGD Tarrasch with two full extra tempi.  In my opinion, these 2 tempi are sufficient for an advantage.

Good luck...


Interesting comments. I think the 4.Bf4 lines in general should suit switching 1.e4 players, because White relies more on tactical play than on a huge space advantage in most of the lines. And you can always vary with 4.Bf4/5.Nf3/6.Rc1, 4.Bf4/5.e3, 4.Bf4/5.Rc1, etc. to drive opponents nuts.

I didn't get why this has to be a move order problem for a Sämisch KID player though; after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 you can meet 3...Bg7 with 4.e4 d6 5.f3 and 3...d5 with 4.Nf3 (or 4.Bf4) Bg7 5.Bf4 etc. What am I missing?

Another line to look into is 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Bd2. I've looked at Moskalenko's favorite line 5.Bd2 Bg7 6.e4 Nb6 7.Be3 0-0 8.f4!? which is not as well-known as the alternatives, but can get very sharp. One of the main lines runs

8... Nc6 9. d5 Na5 10. Bd4 e5 11. Bxe5 Bxe5 12. fxe5 Qh4+ 13. g3 Qe7 14. Qd4 Rd8 15. b4 Nac4 16. Nf3 Bg4 17. Bxc4 Bxf3 18.0-0 and while White's pawn structure is compromised, Black must be very careful with his weakened king with rather few defenders, and the open f-file leading up to it (a frequent problem for Black after the g7 bishop is exchanged). Often the e5-e6-break gives White a very strong attack.

In the same line, I think 8.h3 (planning Nf3 while stopping ...Bg4) has been underestimated in some sources (Dembo, for example) who recommend a quick ...f5 (?!) for Black. The problem is 8...e5! 9.Nf3 exd4 10.Bxd4 Bxd4 11.Qxd4 is so dead equal I would only use 8.h3 against much stronger opponents.
« Last Edit: 07/19/09 at 11:21:50 by Stigma »  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo